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Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by ttul on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:39PM (#35062317)
It’s small beer by comparison, but I’m similar fashion, British Columbians booted out an efficient and wonderful value added tax called the HST because an aging provincial politician engaged his base of mostly conservative low-information voters against it, claiming baselessly that it killed jobs.

Democracies for some reason seem to shoot themselves in the foot periodically when a popular idea takes hold despite rational arguments against it. If you can come up with a good sounding idea that is devoid of facts, dumb citizens will gleefully support it.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by deepsun on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:46PM (#35062394)
Democracy is a bad form of government, especially for more complex questions as you presented. Unfortunately, that's still the best form of government we've discovered that far (besides theoretical naive ones like communism or libertarianism).
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by yamtaddle on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:52PM (#35062455)
So Two cheers for Democracy: one because it admits variety and two because it permits criticism. Two cheers are quite enough: there is no occasion to give three. Only Love the Beloved Republic deserves that.

— EM Forster

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by danans on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:07PM (#35062633)
> that's still the best form of government we've discovered that far (besides theoretical naive ones like communism or libertarianism).

Libertarianism and communism may be naive, but as I understand it, they aren't forms of government, as in "providing a framework for governance".

Democracy, authoritarianism, fascism, monarchy, oligarchy, anarchy - those are all forms of government.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by doctor_eval on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:46PM (#35062396)
> conservative low-information voters

this is a terrific turn of phrase. thanks.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by red-iron-pine on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:21AM (#35070909)
there are liberal low-info voters, and high-info voters of both sides.

plus don't conflate low info to == low intelligence. low info is as much about attention and willingness to delve into policies as it is about sharpness. your Stanford STEM grad working 60 hours a week doesn't have time to dig deep into anything outside of some casual reddit or wired or HN browsing, and efforts to convey expectations via simple things like screenshoting someone else's tweets work very well.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by doctor_eval on Thursday March 09, 2023 @04:02AM (#35079488)
I did not make the assumptions you’re concerned about but I appreciate the spirit of your comment.

I would however argue that low info often correlates with low access to info. Or perhaps more correctly, you don’t know what you don’t know, so you don’t know to look.

If theres anything I’ve learned as I’ve become older it’s how little I know about anything.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by AussieWog93 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:46PM (#35062401)
>If you can come up with a good sounding idea that is devoid of facts, dumb citizens will gleefully support it.

You can also apply the same thinking to "rational", fact-based ideas held by intellectuals.

Sometimes they backfire in horrific ways and you need the truck drivers of the world to keep you in line.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by abraae on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:01PM (#35062562)
What sort of ideas do you have in mind?
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by srackey on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:14PM (#35063384)
Communism
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by bandyaboot on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:59PM (#35063766)
When communist movements take hold, it’s because the truck driver types have gotten on board.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by yamtaddle on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:49PM (#35062424)
"The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

— Winston Churchill (probably not, actually, but it's usually attributed to him)

Or just read any poli-sci research concerning voters. It's basically all horrifying and/or depressing.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by throw0101c on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:28PM (#35062895)
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." — H. L. Mencken, A Little Book in C major (1916)
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by belos on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @03:00AM (#35066457)
This is absolutely one of my favorite quotes, because it’s both true, and points to what we need, which is better systems. I’m currently writing out a design for a better system! At the moment I’ve published some work toward it, including commentaries on some of the major problems a new design needs to resolve. Some of the key ones include the dilution of representation, which means that emotional appeals have a much easier time driving voter behavior, bundled governance, which means we get far less expertise among our policymakers, and lack of justifiable governance - we don’t have to prove that our rules do what we intended them to do.

I’d love to invite more folks to give feedback and think about some of these ideas. It is possible to design a better system, but somewhere along the way we sort of gave up on doing more than incremental reform. I'm currently still laying foundations, but hope to be laying out a worked out proposal within the next few months.

https://bestofagreatlot.substack.com/p/a-beginning https://bestofagreatlot.substack.com/p/table-of-contents

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by shagie on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @10:15AM (#35069971)
> This is absolutely one of my favorite quotes, because it’s both true, and points to what we need, which is better systems.

To which one would reply...

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…

https://winstonchurchill.org/resources/quotes/the-worst-form...

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by belos on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @11:49AM (#35071340)
People often use this to imply that we can't make better things. That's a really sad belief. I will agree that it's tremendously hard, and requires enormous care, but the Founders of the US weren't gods. They didn't have perfect knowledge of all possible ways of organizing things. With science we say we stand on the shoulders of giants, and I think it's possible to do so in this realm too.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by ghufran_syed on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:55PM (#35062493)
is there such a thing as “liberal low-information voters” and if so, what bad policies were enacted as a result of such voters? Or is this just a high-brow way of saying “the people who disagree with us are stupid”?
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by ttul on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:30PM (#35062915)
Sure, there definitely are liberal low-information voters. Consider the mask-opposed anti-vax crusader who nonetheless eats vegan and votes Democrat, for instance.

The average person has an IQ of 100. Given that average IQ is defined as being one standard deviation of average, the vast majority of voters are between low intelligence and average intelligence. About 84% of voters thus have low-to-average intelligence (68% fits in one standard deviation of average; 68/2 + 50 = 84%).

Regardless of your political leaning, I think it’s worthwhile accepting that most governments are elected by people who aren’t as smart as the typical HN contributor.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by wizofaus on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:44PM (#35063068)
Fairly sure your maths is off there...IQ is supposed to have normal distribution, hence ~50% have below-average intelligence, 50% above-average: how can 84% possibly have low-to-average?

Either way, even if it's true that some significant percentage of voters have below-average IQ, how strong is the evidence that they'll make a "worse" collective choice of government than those with above-average IQs? That's basically assuming that the properties of candidates that will ensure they can act as part of an effective government are somehow "too hard" to accurately judge unless you have above average IQ. It seems just as possible the opposite is true - i.e. those with above average IQ aren't good at judging the sorts of properties candidates need to be govern effectively - at least partly because that implies being able to govern in way that works well for those in the below-average-IQ group (i.e. those in the above-average-IQ group will probably do reasonably well for themselves regardless of the quality of government).

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by wahern on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:17PM (#35063409)
The comment uses a definition of average as scores within one standard deviation of the mean. (The comment also uses average as the mean score, 100, which makes it confusing--two meanings of average. NB: Mean is also median in normal distributions.)
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by wizofaus on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:36PM (#35064909)
I suppose it's the redefinition of average to include IQs up to "115" that I'd say was the issue then...
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by wahern on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @11:58PM (#35065448)
TIL that apparently both Stanford-Binet and Wechsler have classification systems which both define "average" as 90-109. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford%E2%80%93Binet_Intelli... (the latter includes the latest scale for Standford-Binet)

Google provides many hits of people using average to mean within one standard deviation, or 85-115, but in a few minutes of searching I couldn't figure out a proper authority for that.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by gwking on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:22PM (#35062823)
There certainly are. I grew up in a very liberal area and have met lots of people that fit the description. Picture a guy who was raised by ex-hippies and doesn't read the news or care about politics.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by idrathernot on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:14AM (#35065841)
Not reading the “news” and not partaking in flavor of the week national political topics are both positive indicators of intelligence in my opinion. It at least takes some meaningful wisdom to not impulsively form a binary conclusion on every topic mentioned by news reporters.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by satvikpendem on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:00PM (#35062552)
Perhaps those who lean liberal but dislike nuclear energy?
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by Arnt on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:24PM (#35062844)
Nah, that's people like me. We say "nuclear has high and increasing costs, requires state-subsidised liability insurance and isn't even getting closer to solving its waste problem" and think that learning to live with cheap fickle solar is a smaller problem. Even if you disagree, I don't think you'll call it a a low-information attitude.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by creato on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:40PM (#35063018)
You proved yourself to be low information on at least one point (the waste problem).

Your other points may be “true” but in a rather hollow way. We’re all subsidizing the impact of fossil fuel waste for example, it just isn’t correctly accounted for.

> and think that learning to live with cheap fickle solar is a smaller problem

Even if we accept this to be true now, we will have been burning fossil fuels for over a century by the time we actually learn to live with solar at a scale relevant to climate change. I place blame for that squarely on low information liberals.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by bryanlarsen on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:54PM (#35063168)
> (the waste problem).

The waste problem isn't solved. It's entirely a political problem rather than a technical problem, but it's still a problem.

> we will have been burning fossil fuels for over a century by the time we actually learn to live with solar at a scale relevant to climate change.

In 2015, wind&solar was 5.7% of US electricity generation. In 2021 it was 13%. In 2022 it was 16.5%. How can you extrapolate from that and come up with a century?

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by creato on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:15PM (#35063390)
Nuclear has been stalled in favor of fossil fuels for at least 50 years already.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by Arnt on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @05:28AM (#35067329)
I think you overlook the central point: The assessment that x>y is based on learned information about x and y, and the assessment that a is a smaller problem than b ditto.

You may argue that the x, y, a and b are wrong, and therefore the conclusions is wrong. Well, fine, as you please. What I'm saying is that learning about x, y, a and b, then forming conclusions, is a high-information mode.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by rapind on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:20PM (#35062799)
It’s not “low information”, if anything we all have way too much information. It’s the overwhelming quantity of “low quality information” that’s breaking us.

Combine this with the decimation of the middle class and democracy has a big problem.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by analog31 on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:16PM (#35062735)
I don't want to throw mud, but something I've thought of is that there has never been a viable liberal talk radio show that came anywhere close to competing with Rush Limbaugh, and there is no liberal analogue to Fox News with anywhere near the success.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by idrathernot on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @01:01AM (#35065769)
Perhaps this is a result of the center-left stance held by most national media corporations and their affiliated commentators. Fox has a monopoly on “conservative msm news” at a national level so they don’t have to share the pie like “liberal msm news”.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by creato on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:31PM (#35062922)
The examples I can think of are going to be arguable, but:

- Antivaccine politics (before covid) was mostly liberal.

- Progressive regulation of housing construction/affordable housing policies in liberal cities are (probably) well intentioned but economically naive

- Some environmental policies (banning plastic straws, grocery bags, some water conservation efforts) are again well intentioned but a complete waste of breath for either side.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by mcphage on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:01PM (#35062564)
> is there such a thing as “liberal low-information voters”

It isn't necessarily the case that low-information voters are distributed equally across the political spectrum.

> what bad policies were enacted as a result of such voters

It's not a legal policy, but consider usage of the word "latinx" which most Americans of Latin American heritage strongly dislike.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by MaxLeiter on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:07PM (#35062637)
> but consider usage of the word "latinx" which most Americans of Latin American heritage strongly dislike.

Last I saw, the majority don’t care: https://news.gallup.com/poll/353000/no-preferred-racial-term...

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by discreteevent on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:23PM (#35062833)
"Although it is not true that all Conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are Conservative." - John Stewart Mill
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by abraae on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:56PM (#35062505)
Democracies are weird. Many of the most primal problems of mankind are solved. The rule of law is (in theory) impartial, citizens have property rights, etc. etc. There is free press.

Most people living in democracies don't really understand - or just don't think about - how good they have it. At the same time, the human brain is wired to react strongly to outrage. Living the sweet life in a democracy, and with less valid things to outrage about, the brain is vulnerable to outrage exploitation about manufactured controversies, like who must bake a cake for who, or whether this statue or that should be allowed to stand in the park. Social media hostility and polarisation flourish.

But when the chips are down and democracy itself is at stake, people wake up and start thinking more rationally about the things that really matter.

Case in point from a news article this morning - Ukraine is normalising LGBTQ attitudes rapidly because suddenly their democracy is at risk. And suddenly it seems more sensible to have your LGBTQ neighbour alongside you in the trenches rather than hating on them because of your weird religious hangups or whatever (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/03/07/russias-wa...).

So perhaps democracy does indeed shoot itself in the foot, but perhaps also the system can be self-balancing when things finally go off the rails or a threat from outside arrives.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by themaninthedark on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @07:36PM (#35063578)
That is a very optimistic view, I doubt that the % of LGBTQ that would contribute in the trenches would make a big difference.

My bet is that this is just signaling to their western allies(us) but hopefully I am wrong.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by robear on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:20PM (#35062794)
In my circles it was mainly left leaning people against the HST. Part of it was a dislike of Gordon Campbell and part of it was that the HST changes were seen as pro-business.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by bluefirebrand on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:35PM (#35062970)
> British Columbians booted out an efficient and wonderful value added tax called the HST because an aging provincial politician engaged his base of mostly conservative low-information voters against it, claiming baselessly that it killed jobs.

Absolutely not.

It was because the HST added an extra 7% tax onto a whole ton of things that were exempt from the 7% PST previously. The HST was costing people a lot money on everyday items.

Yeah when most things start cost an extra 7% in tax, you're going to mobilize people against you.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by Tiktaalik on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @09:56PM (#35064624)
With the HST issue, it wasn't necessarily the democracy that was the fault but the mechanism of direct democracy referendum. Also the culprit with Brexit.

There's a reason our democracies are representative democracies. It allows things to slow down and our representatives to have cooler heads and make informed decisions.

In contrast a referendum is easily instantly hijacked and there's never any guarantee that the way people are voting in the referendum has anything actually to do with the referendum issue.

In BC's case with the HST the vote on the tax quickly became a way to poke the unpopular Premier Gordon Campbell in the eye, and many people voted against the HST to make a point against a government that they were mad at for other reasons.

Referendums are bad bad bad.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by Gud on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:14AM (#35065523)
I disagree completely with this point of view. Look to Switzerland for a functioning direct democracy.
Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by Tiktaalik on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @12:05PM (#35071591)
Women only got the vote in Switzerland in 1971.

Referendums were effectively used to limit their rights for decades upon decades longer than other democracies.

Re:After seven years of Brexit talks, Europe has emerged as ... by Gud on Wednesday March 08, 2023 @02:55PM (#35073930)
Things move slower in Switzerland. Eventually they adapt good ideas. That is why they're so stable but not always progressive. Switzerland is a very diverse country politically and culturally.