News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by tokinonagare on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:58AM (#35039580)
> Reddit was

Yes, it was somewhat good in the past but an alternative is sorely needed. Most popular subs (at least the one I frequent) are moderated to the point that censored would be the more appropriate word to describe the situation. Then there are whole subs banned (including non political) for wrongthink.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by chimprich on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:36AM (#35039832)
> Then there are whole subs banned (including non political) for wrongthink

I don't really like defending Reddit, because I don't like them as a company, but I don't think this is correct. There's a financial incentive for them to not ban subreddits, so groups have to behave quite obnoxiously or blatantly break Reddit's rules to get banned. Just having a certain political disagreement is not nearly enough.

And if you disagree, please post some examples.

As an aside, I was curious about the use of the word "wrongthink". It sounds like something Orwell would have come up with, but a search suggests that it's actually a neologism that is used mainly by the alt-right.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by realjhol on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:53AM (#35039947)
> And if you disagree, please post some examples.

The Donald

Re:Google Search Is Dying by brookst on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:34AM (#35043017)
The poster child for vote manipulation? Where front page articles would have 5000 upvotes 10 minutes after posting? The sub that fetishized persecution despite receiving warning by after warning?
Re:Google Search Is Dying by realjhol on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:05PM (#35049106)
There were a huge number of active users there who lobed up voting anything and everything.

It really didn't fetishise persecuting anyone. The warnings were arbitrary and capricious

Re:Google Search Is Dying by projektfu on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:58AM (#35039984)
Orwell's term is crimethink of course. I can only think of one party that recently passed laws making it a felony to say certain things to certain people. Thankfully you're still allowed to actually hold the thoughts in your head.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by carlosjobim on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:29AM (#35040696)
> I can only think of one party that recently passed laws making it a felony to say certain things to certain people.

No idea as to what you're referring to, but you must know many more examples throughout the world and history, no?

Re:Google Search Is Dying by marcosdumay on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:48AM (#35042402)
That's probably an US-centric comment. I have no idea what it is either, but the "one party that done X" line is a strong signal of it.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by brookst on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:33AM (#35042993)
It has always been a felony to say “certain things to certain people”. See for instance fraud against the elderly.

Which certain people are you being unfairly restrained from saying what certain things to?

Re:Google Search Is Dying by projektfu on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:58PM (#35045888)
Looking into it I probably accepted a framing I shouldn't have.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by benjaminwootton on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:02AM (#35040462)
They banned a large Covid sub r/NoNewNormal where the bulk of the content would be accepted as common sense today.

Themes in that sub were that “the cure is worse than the disease” (it was) and that “we shouldn’t throw away our way of life for Covid” (we chose not to in hindsight).

If you are a member of subs like r/lockdownskepticism even today then you frequently get banned from other subs.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by chimprich on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:46AM (#35041606)
"Common sense" indeed. That subreddit was a hotbed of unscientific anti-vaccine lies. However, it was actually banned for breaking Reddit rules on brigading.

https://www.reddit.com/r/redditsecurity/comments/pfyqqn/covi...

Quote:

  Claims of “brigading” are common and often hard to quantify. However, in this case, we found very clear signals indicating that r/NoNewNormal was the source of around 80 brigades in the last 30 days (largely directed at communities with more mainstream views on COVID or location-based communities that have been discussing COVID restrictions). This behavior continued even after a warning was issued from our team to the Mods.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by _dain_ on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:56AM (#35043334)
no, this is BS. pretty much every big political sub does "brigading" against other subs, it's impossible to stop. a handful of bad actors can ruin it for everyone. reddit admins apply the anti-brigading rules selectively. there are big subs that have gotten away with it forever.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by brookst on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:30AM (#35042964)
That’s some revisionist history. That sun was a cesspool of bad behavior. It wasn’t banned for believing the wrong thing, it was banned for organized attacks on anyone who dared to believe differently from them.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by AdamN on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:14AM (#35039702)
There's nothing wrong with a sub banning/censoring people. That's a critical part of having a trust value within a social network and if moderators of a popular sub don't think a poster is meeting the bar to post it is good for them to ban it and become higher trust. If they go too far than there won't be content on the sub at all though.

For instance /r/AskHistorians has a very high bar for posting and threads are commonly removed. As a result (and because they still have posters that meet that bar), the sub is considered very high trust. Some other subs anybody can say anything and I go so far as to filter the entire sub out so I never see it again.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by 000ooo000 on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:41AM (#35039863)
>There's nothing wrong with a sub banning/censoring people. That's a critical part of having a trust value within a social network

I would not characterise a community moulded according to the whims of a few anonymous individuals as high in trust.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by regularfry on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:35AM (#35040249)
It's high in trust of a very specific type. Not, perhaps, the type we want or need, but the type we have nonetheless.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by AdamN on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:15AM (#35040560)
I muted USA Today in Apple News recently because their filtering was below the bar (click bait headlines, low quality writing). I don't know who the editors are that are making their decisions but I no longer trust that outlet anymore.

Channels with higher quality selection (Financial Times) now have more of my time because I trust them more based on previous decisions they have made (to show me fewer low quality articles under click bait headlines).

Re:Google Search Is Dying by ilyt on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:47AM (#35041612)
> I muted USA Today in Apple News recently because their filtering was below the bar (click bait headlines, low quality writing). I don't know who the editors are that are making their decisions but I no longer trust that outlet anymore.

YOU MUTED is the key here.

"Majority of subreddit didn't like it so it got downvoted" is somewhat democratic will of community.

You muted a user coz you don't want their content is personal choice.

Moderator choosing to do so on a whim is neither of those. You do need moderators coz some people won't behave but many times rules of subreddit are basically there so moderator can point to excuse on banning or removing whatever they don't like, not to ban something people don't want there.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by AdamN on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @05:22AM (#35053703)
USA Today is the moderator ... and they do a poor job so I muted the entire 'sub'. USA Today is not an analogue for the user.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by isaacremuant on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:00AM (#35041044)
There's absolutely something wrong. They're not banning people for not adhering to posting rules in a sub, they're literally banning wrongthink, they're often banning political opinions they dislike or don't align with US democrat party hegemony.

They suppress subs or influence mods to suppress them for them.

There's a myriad of ways in which censorship to shape a narrative happens, and that narrative is as true as the narrative a few twitter users can set, if highlighted as "the majority opinion/the people have spoken" by mainstream media.

There's intervention via subterfuge, not an open contract you either adhere or not.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by h9h9h9 on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:07AM (#35041141)
High bar is subjective, you're only filtering by the most superficial aspects: are there swear words? Do they have citations? Do they "sound" smart? Are they saying something "problematic"? Same here. There's no cadence. (I'm not talking about /r/AskHistorians though)

I've found hidden gems in free for all, no-karma, no-upvote forums such as 4chan. And you pay attention there, because people are not trying to sound smart.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by account42 on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:34AM (#35041473)
> That's a critical part of having a trust value within a social network and if moderators of a popular sub don't think a poster is meeting the bar to post it is good for them to ban it and become higher trust. If they go too far than there won't be content on the sub at all though.

That's implying that there is a single one-dimensional quality metric. The problem is when moderators of popular subreddits (for a particular niche) or those with the most obvious names for a particular topic start to enforcing their own personal biases in the discussion rather than sticking to keeping the discussion on-topic.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by grumple on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:41AM (#35041554)
I completely agree with the point that banning/censoring people is necessary in order to operate any internet forum. But I know from firsthand experience that bans are used to stifle valuable discussion both on major subreddits and niche ones. I've seen it happen to me and to others.

For example, on an r/news post a few years ago about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, I replied to another comment where my content was basically the following: "If someone threatened to bomb your house, and they had a history of bombing houses, would you respond? What about after they destroyed your house?". That's almost exactly the wording I used (wish the comment hadn't been deleted so I could repost it exactly). This not only got me permanently banned from r/news, but also reported to the admins who censored the account. I suspect I pissed off a reddit admin or power user who followed me around reporting me, as shortly afterwards in a niche sub, I made another post discussing the continuum of force when it came to violent crime, quickly received several reports, and my account was permabanned from reddit. Note that both the content and tone of my posts there were similar to how I post on HN, which I think is generally appropriate.

This sequence of events bothered me a lot, because I think discussion of the use of force continuum and the ethics of preemptive or retributive force are highly relevant to today's world, and that the places where I continued (didn't start) discussion of them were the appropriate places for them. If this conversation can't happen on reddit, which it appears it can't, then we need another forum. It is clear to me today that reddit has hit it's eternal september. I can't bring myself to respond to the multitude of low effort posts that typically bombard you when you post something other than memeing.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by MrMan on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:07AM (#35039644)
that is great for increasing the quality of search results, moderation is awesome
Re:Google Search Is Dying by dageshi on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:29AM (#35040210)
This point is always brought up and it has no relevance in terms of what we're discussing which boils down to opinions on products and services from people who have some expertise in the matter.

You're not going to get banned from a hobby sub for asking a question on something related to a product in that hobby.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by tokinonagare on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:51AM (#35040952)
Try asking why Aragorn is a black man in the future LotR set on /r/magicTCG and see how long you can ask a question on something related to a product in that hobby after that. There are other swift ways to get ban, like noting that the body shape of some characters were changed drastically in-between old and newer cards. Basically anything going against the pandering of WotC to some twitter users.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by ilyt on Monday March 06, 2023 @09:52AM (#35041679)
I got banned out of /r/games for asking "what rights trans people don't have that other humans do?" under post about someone yelling "trans rights are human rights" about Hogwart's legacy. Not being snarky at all, just curious (as I'm not from US and don't really get what the fuss is about).

Still haven't got a coherent answer out of anyone I asked, just insults

Re:Google Search Is Dying by izacus on Monday March 06, 2023 @10:18AM (#35041990)
That... sounds like a very well deserved ban considering the topic, the reddit and everything that was happening around it.

As a moderator of online communities I'd do the same in a heartbeat. Take that to Twitter or somewhere.

Re:Google Search Is Dying by soerxpso on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:31AM (#35042972)
How is that well-deserved? His comment was literally about the topic of the post, and the post was apparently allowed. "We allow politics but sorry, you're only allowed to have the Right Opinion here. Take all other opinions to Twitter!"
Re:Google Search Is Dying by dighp on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:11AM (#35042713)
It's a good question, and one that their activists don't like answering because "the right to impose oneself on spaces designated solely for the opposite sex" isn't what most people would accept as a human right. So they ignore or block or ban or attack instead of engaging reasonably.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by brookst on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:38AM (#35043076)
I don’t think anyone would take you seriously enough to give a coherent answer if you’re echoing the language of the bigots, even just unintentionally. It’s like asking “why should black people be able to use the same restrooms?” during the civil rights movement. Even as a totally honest and not at all disingenuous question, it blends into the rhetoric of the reactionaries.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by tokinonagare on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:52PM (#35045774)
The whole story related to Rowling supposedly being transphobe is crazy. All that canceling because she stated in a twit that "person who menstruate" is a stupid circumlocution around the word woman. Then, like religious taboo, it extended to whatever was linked to it. The irony is that all these cancelers are acting very 10-100 worst against whoever is the target of the anger than what happened to the people they are supposedly defending.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by brookst on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:35AM (#35043038)
So you’re saying they have little interest in entertaining someone who just wants to culture war? And that’s somehow bad?
Re:Google Search Is Dying by tokinonagare on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:46PM (#35045675)
What are you speaking about? The company owning the father of all trading card game, which had a strong place in geek culture, is buying for millions a beloved IP very relevant to that demographic too and is making huge controversial changes to push for woke ideology and you claim that's the people rebelling against it are trying to start a culture war. This is pure victim blaming and shaming. That's outrageous honestly. Especially given the even the (worth watching) Peterson Jackson's movie adaption was already controversial to a part of the fanbase, and that the Amazon adaptation showed clearly that radical-left agenda wasn't welcome in the lore.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by snapcaster on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @08:27AM (#35055059)
I mean but really who cares right? A fictional character is black, are the people worked up about this just children? Or just privileged? I struggle to understand why the intensity of people's feelings about this
Re:Google Search Is Dying by brookst on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @08:49AM (#35055261)
Maybe re-read your post and consider whether it is really so inexplicable that a community focused on a trading card game doesn’t want that kind of outrage and vitriol.
Re:Google Search Is Dying by thefourthchime on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:15PM (#35043660)
It's getting a lot worse I agree. It seems like anything that might be offensive to anyone having any emotions under any circumstance is now blurred and labeled "NSFW".