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Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday February 25, 2023 @11:21AM (#34937782)
I kind of don't like this interpretation of events.

The speed of causality varies depending on the speed of the causal particles and waves which propagate from an event. I was just reading an article on surviving nuclear detonations, and from those you have a few causal events propagating at different rates: the radiation, the shockwaves, the fallout.

And if a tree falls in a forest with no one around, it does still make a sound.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by Maursault on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:03PM (#34938199)
> And if a tree falls in a forest with no one around, it does still make a sound.

I don't think you'll like the reason why. It was Bishop Berkeley[1], who gave his name to Berkeley CA, that originally posited and answered this question, and his answer was that God is always around and, thus, among other things, hears everything, so the falling tree makes a sound.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Berkeley#Contributions_...

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by p1mrx on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:13PM (#34938305)
> I don't think you'll like [some dead guy's] reason why.

The first person to ask a question doesn't have a monopoly on the answer.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday February 25, 2023 @12:15PM (#34938324)
I'm fine with that reasoning; however from another point of view: The tree is a subject, too.

For this particular instance, since the event is about 26,000 light years away, we could as easily say that it happened in 50,000 B.C., since that was the time on Earth when our light traveled to meet it.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by muontraveller on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:33PM (#34939167)
If God can hear the tree falling, then perhaps he’s listening in a 4th dimension of spatial reality.

All but a 3D place so we could avoid time dilation and experience other planets in real-time.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by sidlls on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:43PM (#34939240)
That's not the reason why. The reason why is that the falling tree disturbs particles in the atmosphere while it falls (which makes a sound) and when it hits the ground (which makes another sound--both from the vibration of the ground/air interface and through the earth itself).
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by oceanplexian on Saturday February 25, 2023 @02:56PM (#34939842)
This is precisely what is happening.

The whole philosophical debate is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard. Of course things happen even if a human doesn’t observe it. Then they have to make up something about a magical religious figure hearing the tree. All I can think of is the Monty Python skit “..pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth”

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by geoelectric on Saturday February 25, 2023 @06:30PM (#34941548)
I always took the root of the debate to be that sound is an artifical quality we use to describe the characteristics of the air vibrations we perceive.

Short of a lazier universe than we're willing to accept, it almost certainly did cause an effect, including harmonic vibrations, ones that are replicated around like echos, etc. It's just unclear if it's sound if there's nobody there to interpret it.

Not saying I buy it one way or the other, just that it's the reason I never thought it was as stupid as you do.

Extending this take back to thread root and then the objection, I always understood "speed of sound" to be more or less "speed of causalty filtered through a substrate", i.e. if you bump into this side, how long does it take that side to be affected by it? "Sound" is just one potential type of bump to be traveling, if we subjectively interpret the vibrations that eventually make it through to the other side that way.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by andsoitis on Saturday February 25, 2023 @04:19PM (#34940600)
> God hears everything

It is probably wrong to assume that God interfaces with the physical universe in the same way as us (and other living beings who perceive sound).

They (God) may perceive vibrations of air particles in a way that we wouldn’t call “sound”.

In fact, I’m pretty sure they have to otherwise they would be overwhelmed by all the noise they hear from everywhere all the time.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by Swizec on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:05PM (#34938841)
The tree makes air move, but you need a subjective experience to turn that into sound.
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by Sebb767 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:35PM (#34939177)
That depends on whether you define sound as air waves/vibration or the sensation of hearing. Definitions vary [1,2,3], which is why this philosophical question manages to get people talking past each other.

[1] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sound

[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound

[3] https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sound (note that "can be heard" != "is heard")

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by sidlls on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:44PM (#34939258)
Then it's not a philosophical question so much as about the meaning of "sound". And "debates" about semantics are about as uninteresting as it gets.
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by Sebb767 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:53PM (#34939326)
A lot of "philosophical" questions boil down to semantic debates, see the sleeping beauty problem for another one [1]. So we can get into a philosophical (or semantic?) debate about that, for a funny instance of recursion :-)

But I agree with that those debates are quite uninteresting, so let's not do that.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_Beauty_problem

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by mistermann on Saturday February 25, 2023 @03:12PM (#34939984)
> And "debates" about semantics are about as uninteresting as it gets.

A 'fact' that is relative to the frame of reference of the observer.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by sidlls on Saturday February 25, 2023 @04:16PM (#34940580)
Nah, there’s nothing less interesting and more irritating than bikeshedding if that sort. Nobody cares about some blowhard’s attempt to generate pointless “debate” over hypotheticals and semantics.
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by mistermann on Sunday February 26, 2023 @01:28PM (#34947955)
> Nah, there’s nothing less interesting and more irritating than bikeshedding of that sort.

When you say "there’s nothing less interesting and more irritating than", are you speaking universally, or of your own personal experience?

> Nobody cares about some blowhard’s attempt to generate pointless “debate” over hypotheticals and semantics.

How do you people have knowledge of each others thoughts? Serious question.

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by ctoth on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:46PM (#34939270)
Did... Did this actually just happen for real?

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/a7n8GdKiAZRX86T5A/making-bel...

Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by Sebb767 on Saturday February 25, 2023 @01:54PM (#34939329)
Well, I guess there's always https://xkcd.com/1053/
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by anonymouskimmer on Saturday February 25, 2023 @04:01PM (#34940418)
I don't get why you're posting this in a surprised manner. Yes, these philosophical debates have been happening for many, many years (and when they do happen they often happen with famous philosophical questions such as the tree-forest-sound one). Yudkowsky wasn't making a novel philosophical discovery, he was just putting particular philosophical debates and meta-debates together into an essay.
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by astrange on Saturday February 25, 2023 @09:48PM (#34942569)
I'm sorry you accidentally joined an internet cult, but Yud did not invent philosophy, especially not Wittgenstein.
Re:Mysterious object is being dragged into the black hole at... by digbybk on Sunday February 26, 2023 @10:19PM (#34952545)
It's the maximum speed of causality, not the speed at which all things are caused. The speed limit of causality. If the rest of the theory of relativity was correct but there wasn't a maximum speed, then it would be possible for an effect to precede the cause. Relativity got rid of absolute simultaneity but some things still need to happen in a certain order. I think when people say "speed of causality" the "maximum" bit is implied.