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Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by DontchaKnowit on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:31AM (#34881580)
Interestingly you describe the shattering of your delusion as the return of your ego - I think it is the opposite. I think you invited an inflated ego into your life through your meditation : "I should become a guru and help humanity" <-- that is ego speaking. The shattering of this idea is is not ego but humility, to my way of thinking.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by 2-718-281-828 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:52AM (#34881826)
you have a point
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by realce on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:28AM (#34882199)
It's also just a mind that might be desperate for a core identity after having its last one logically dissolved through introspection.

While ego can hijack identity for it's own mad desires, an identity is required for the actuation of relational actions on a basic level. With no "center" from which to make decisions, the functions of your mind tasked with making choices will panic - this is a foundation of brainwashing/psychological manipulation. Very similar things happen to people who have a TBI, where they become stressed when forced to make choices that seem to have zero baring on "their" lives.

So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by Eupraxias on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:33PM (#34884857)
"So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises. "

I'm sure it's different for most others, but I had the opposite experience. It has introduced a great calm into my life.

From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by zozbot234 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:41PM (#34884972)
> From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species.

Yeah, except that in practice awareness of no-self is very far from an ethical cure-it-all. There's plenty of supposedly "enlightened" folks in a variety of spiritual traditions who routinely engage in morally sub-standard behavior, despite having reached that awareness themselves and teaching it to others. We know for a fact that many spiritual traditions view correct ethics and behavior as paramount, and as the hardest part of their training.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by flycaliguy on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:56PM (#34885247)
Can you elaborate on your comment regarding TBI? I’m, uh, asking for a friend.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by realce on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:02PM (#34885372)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoiZs7QpDUY

I remember a clip I'd seen where a veteran with a TBI would break down when shopping, since there's so many choices that are focused at appealing to personality rather than utility, and his notion of his own personality was minimal.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by jossclimb on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:57AM (#34882556)
I was more humouring the situation there and adding some color, but for sure, the ego is incredibly powerful and deep seated. I firmly believe what I had initially was profound, and was hijacked by the ego (and this is a very common happening to anyone on a spiritual journey of some sort).
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by mtalantikite on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:23PM (#34885669)
The best book I've read on this topic is Chögyam Trungpa's "Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism" [1]. He's very clear in pointing out how ego tries to get involved in everything.

It sounds like you may have had an experience, to some extent, of dwelling in the union of wisdom and emptiness or what some call dharmadhatu [2]. It's not a teaching I encountered until I started practicing Vajrayana, as Theravada teachers don't often emphasize the teachings on sunyata. It's something you'll encounter in Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings.

[1] https://www.shambhala.com/cutting-through-spiritual-material...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmadhatu

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by zozbot234 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:43PM (#34885966)
> ... the union of wisdom and emptiness ...

Ah, the extent that some people will go through to avoid acknowledging God. It's like some people take stubborn pleasure in being purposely nihilistic and strenuously denying all that's good about the world. How this can be part of a supposedly spiritual practice, I just can't understand.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by cybervaz on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:17PM (#34886481)
They think they are on a journey yo self enlightenment when they're actually in a very dangerous road to spiritual weakness, causing damage to their souls and leaving gaps to be used by entities that they'll not feel any pleasure of knowing.

That sense of impeding doom is nothing more than those spiritual entities oppressing with overwhelming power them by those gaps.

We are locked out of that world for a reason. The safe means to get unlocked is by getting your soul to borrow the power of God and slowly expose yourself to such world. Other than that, self enlightenment is just wishful thinking of empty vessels.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by DontchaKnowit on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @05:30PM (#34888593)
Word. The more I explore the the world of occult practices throughout history the more I am convinced that it is always an excercise in self destruction.

Our intentions, understanding, morality, sense of self, sense of direction, is so frail. A man who believes he can manufacture these things for himself (which is, in my opinion, wfundamentally what occultists are doing) is doomed to spiritual sufferring.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by akomtu on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:53PM (#34887100)
The original term behind "emptiness" is a lot richer than this english word. That's why many books leave those words as is, e.g. rig-pa.

"Emptiness" of your mind means something like a thin soap bubble around you. This bubble acts as a lens, it can enlarge arbitrary things, it can create stable patterns on its surface, and all that is useful, but it blocks whatever is outside the bubble. In its natural state it would be a perfect invisible sphere, letting you see outside: this union of clarity and emptiness creates wisdom. You are still going to use this bubble as a whiteboard for your thoughts, but you'll also know how to see thru it.

The concept of emptiness applies to material world in general: the western science calls it space-time, the idea that any thing can turn into any other thing, for both are fundamentally just motions of energy that has no natural shape. Buddhism tries to teach this basic idea in different terms.

For some reason that I don't quite understand, the founders of the three religions had fragmented the truth: buddhism teaches wisdom, christianity teaches love and islam teaches action - the three aspects of the spirit. Perhaps they thought that mixing everything into one bag would be too difficult to grasp, or maybe they hope it will make the peoples collaborate to assemble the pieces.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by elbear on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @04:30PM (#34887706)
Buddhism also teaches love. The Heart Practices are an example.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by mtalantikite on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @04:50PM (#34887999)
It's quite common to first encounter the teachings on emptiness (sunyata) and be confused into thinking it's about nihilism. However, nihilism is considered one of the two extreme views that leads to suffering in Buddhism -- the other being eternalism -- and both are explicitly argued against. Thich Nhat Hanh has a great book that helps clarify the teachings on sunyata [1].

I also would point out that if anything Buddhism is life-affirming and immensely hopeful, not denying what's good in the world. It teaches that there's a way out of suffering right here and right now, and it's available to every being without exclusion. The fourth noble truth is the spiritual practice to make that happen. Every meditation session in Mahayana and Vajrayana lineages have the common preliminaries, which includes love and compassion for all beings.

[1] https://plumvillage.org/books/the-other-shore/

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by anonymousnotme on Saturday February 25, 2023 @10:58AM (#34937580)
Had this tab open, should have responded several days ago, not sure that this will help anybody now. Michael Singer's Books have been very helpful to me so far. The whole problem seems to be one's ego and how to deal with it.

https://untetheredsoul.com/untethered-soul

https://untetheredsoul.com/living-untethered

I also found eckhart Toll's book "A New Earth" are also helpful:

https://eckharttolle.com/books/

I found "A New Earth" better/more details than "Power of Now" probably because it was written later and I read it later.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by mettamage on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:32PM (#34883961)
Favorited, I'm on a quest to be egoless as I'm finding the ego to be an issue in my day to day. It's hard to pinpoint the ego, but you did so wonderfully :)
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by rattlesnakedave on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @02:40PM (#34885912)
you need some ego. otherwise you won't know where to point your fork to eat.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by nick__m on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @03:22PM (#34886542)
you reminded me of some John lenon comment on ego death :

   I got the message that I should destroy my ego and I did, you know. I was reading that stupid book of Leary’s; we were going through a whole game that everybody went through, and I destroyed myself. I was slowly putting myself together round about Maharishi time. Bit by bit over a two-year period, I had destroyed me ego.

   I didn’t believe I could do anything and let people make me, and let them all just do what they wanted. I just was nothing. I was shit. Then Derek tripped me out at his house after he got back from L.A. He sort of said “You’re all right,” and pointed out which songs I had written. “You wrote this,” and “You said this” and “You are intelligent, don’t be frightened.”
-- https://www.johnlennon.com/music/interviews/rolling-stone-in...
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by lend000 on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @08:47PM (#34890461)
I haven't quite achieved an ego death yet through meditation, but reading through a fair amount of psychedelic journeys suggests that eliminating the ego, while perhaps useful and enlightening in moderation, sort of defeats the point of living a life in this world. If the world really does exist simply to provide experiential distraction from the existential dread of being an absolute consciousness in the void (which is a big if), why be in such a rush to get back into that base state? Go experience all the wonders of the world, take risks, spread positivity.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by zozbot234 on Wednesday February 22, 2023 @05:24AM (#34893804)
No-self is not really about eliminating the ego, it's about eliminating the craving for an ego. These two are not the same; in fact, the latter seems to be harder. It's why so many meditators anecdotally get stuck in their "Dark Night". I don't know what psychedelic "ego death" does exactly, but I'm skeptical that it addresses craving.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by mettamage on Friday February 24, 2023 @09:34PM (#34933239)
There might be some overlap as psilocybin can be used to treat addiction. There’s a recent John Oliver episode on it
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by astrange on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:35PM (#34884009)
That's very similar to the boddhisatva vow many Buddhists are required to take.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by wlonkly on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @09:55PM (#34891045)
The "help humanity" part is; the "become a guru" part less so. If anything I'd say the bodhisattva vow is "this is impossible, but I'm going to try it anyways".
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by JamesBarney on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @12:53PM (#34884296)
Meditation and psychology have a specific term for ego, like when referring to ego death. And it doesn't quite mean the same thing as ego in common usage. It usually means a break down of sense of self, this can happen on psychedelics or in schizophrenia. This can also be accompanied with delusions of grandeur, they're not mutually exclusive.
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by DontchaKnowit on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @05:25PM (#34888534)
Delusions of granduer is basically an inflated sense of self - e.g. an inflated ego. Whether using the common parlance or the jungian definition, its the same thing in this context.

Always tough to discuss slippery, ill defined things such as ego, which in a real sense does not actually exist.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by JamesBarney on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @10:44PM (#34891375)
Usually inflated sense of self means feeling more important than you are. Though linguistically similar is different from the sense of self that you lose from psychedelics and schizophrenia which is literally losing your self of self. You become disconnected from your thoughts and actions. And many schizophrenics experience both.

My mother for instance at one point thought she was Jesus but also thought some of her thoughts or actions were not her own.

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by blueprint on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:25PM (#34889219)
there is such a thing as a true self and false selves. can you tell them apart?
Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by electrondood on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @01:33PM (#34884858)
You get it.

These adverse experiences are the ego's last-ditch effort to maintain cohesion. It's the same with psychedelics. If you let go in the face of the terror and accept, the terror becomes utter bliss.

In response to these experiences, ask "Who exactly are they happening to?"

Re:When Buddhism Goes Bad – How My Mindfulness Practice Led ... by blueprint on Tuesday February 21, 2023 @06:24PM (#34889212)
dude, ego is a health regulating system. do not try to destroy it in others. what you should destroy are delusional words.