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Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by paxys on Friday February 17, 2023 @04:56PM (#34841136)
Upper management – employee productivity has gone way down in the last couple of years.

Employees – yikes, sounds like we should do something about that. Can you tell us how you are measuring productivity? Is shipping velocity slower? Is our revenue lower than projected? Maybe we need to adjust priorities or roadmaps? Let's come up with a plan to make sensible product and process changes that will help us better hit our targets.

Management – ...

Employees – can we even say for sure that productivity is down?

Management – we can, trust us.

Employees – ok, what can we do about it?

Management – 10% of you are fired.

Employees – that will just make the remaining people less productive.

Management – and everyone has to come in to the office 3 days a week.

Employees – but we were hired as fully remote. Most of us don't even live near an office. What will this accomplish?

Management – this will fix all our problems, trust us.

Employees – but what problems are we trying to fix?

The worst part of this is that a year later these companies will magically declare that all employees are 2.37x more productive now, and WFH was always a mistake. The corporate world/media will eat it up, and so office culture will get even more entrenched.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by cardosof on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:36PM (#34843613)
Yes, that's how it works. There's no outside impartial judge looking at arguments from both sides to declare who's wrong, there's no law saying being a hipocritical and cynical are crimes.

It's just people, relationships, employers and employees, and money.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by laichzeit0 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:44AM (#34845513)
Well imagine if you worked your way all the way up to Exec level and for the last few years all you could do was dress up in your expensive suites just to sit in front of a webcam. You’d also feel like a complete clown. You want people in the office so they can see you walking from meeting room to meeting room and hear the sound of your leather (not rubber) soled shoes as you traverse through the corridors of mere mortals. How else do you assert dominance? People need to _see_ that you’re important and that you matter.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by pm90 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:07PM (#34849287)
This rings true to me. Most people at those levels enjoy the “perks” of high status endowed by a job. It’s part of their identity.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by bart_spoon on Sunday February 19, 2023 @10:22AM (#34858304)
I remember a NYTimes article from the last year describing the culture clash between employees wanting to work remote, and management wanting to work in person. The most illustrative example was a CEO of a company in Seattle. When an employee said they appreciated WFH because the lack of commute gave them the time to take jiujitsu classes, the CEO told them they respected their interests, but they needed to consider if their future was in the UFC or working for the company.

The same CEO, when asked about why he preferred working in the office, mentioned something about being more energized by the view from his office, and something about liking the fried chicken restaurant next to the building.

It was a particularly egregious example, but I’m fairly certain this is almost entirely a matter of upper management simply personally preferring the in office lifestyle, in no small part due to the perks of upper management. But it’s hard to justify the glitzy downtown office building or corporate mega campus when they have a average occupancy rate if 20%, which seems to be the case when employees have a choice, and so they are trying to force their preference upon everyone else with made-up assurances about how much more productive everyone is in office.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by pm90 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:09PM (#34849307)
I mean yes rule by diktat if needed but at that point the kind of workers you need to thrive will start looking elsewhere. I guess that’s not an immediate consequence so nobody faces any penalty.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by dalyons on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:53PM (#34843719)
urgh. I hate how accurate this is. The lack of any data or measurement absolutely kills me. Its all just based on exec feels.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by zxcvbn4038 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @05:26AM (#34845746)
I think there are legitimately people out there who can’t function without other people being in the same room as them - and if they happen to be in a position of authority where they can inflict that on other people it causes a lot of problems for everyone else.

I’m in a situation like that now where even though that person is six levels above me and will never know my name or speak with me directly, they are constantly trolling everyone to make sure people have cameras turned on, reminding everyone that remote work is a privilege (no it is keeping us alive, disease monkey), and they are plotting regional and global meetups for teams, or buying everyone VR headsets, etc.

But to what ends? Why would I want to get into a COVID tube and fly to Germany to eat a throw-away processed turkey sandwich and bag of chips with co-workers and then fly back in another COVID tube a day later? What would be accomplished by that? Considering the airfare and hotel costs those have to be the most expensive bag lunches ever made.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by wildrhythms on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:36AM (#34847217)
The VR headset thing makes me laugh. I'd like to see a higherup wear a VR headset for more than 5 minutes.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by zxcvbn4038 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @12:46PM (#34849044)
Luckily those little telepresence robots are out of vogue so nobody has proposed (threatened?) to make us use those yet.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by edgyquant on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:43AM (#34847261)
What should they base it on? Lines of code or jira tickets? Most of the metrics you can name are things we as devs have insisted for years are not adequate to measure dev productivity.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by greedo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:13PM (#34853900)
They should base it on their gut feelings. The same gut feelings that led them to over-hire for the last two years. These "leaders" are clowns with no true leadership skills.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by rumdonut on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:01PM (#34850468)
I understand your observation but I respectfully don't think the conclusion is the case - at a large company I have seen an internal report that shows a substantial issue with productivity that points directly to a lack of in-person interactions as the cause. The Amazon CEO not citing data in his decree does not mean there's no data, or that the data is poor, or that the decision is based on a gut feeling. Amazon is a self-declared data driven company with 1.5 million employees - they absolutely have run the numbers on as big of a decision as this and I would be surprised that a decision as high-stakes as this (both execs and WFHers would agree) would not have due-diligence data to back it up. It is just not shown. The CEO is exercising his authority instead. I think after 3 years of being unable to fix these issues, the decision is final and hence the reliance on authority as an argument instead of data. Giving people data to try to pick apart would just be an unproductive activity that would only serve to damage efforts - it's not meant to be a conversation.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by greedo on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:12PM (#34853892)
You would be surprised that Amazon would make a decision based on anything but facts? Measuring productivity, especially for office workers is extremely difficult except in gross terms. You mention these "issues" that they've been unable to address, but as you say, there's no issues coming down from the Emperor.

And companies that consider good communications with their employees to be "an unproductive activity" are shit companies. There's a reason that Amazon has such a bad reputation amongst all the FAANG. Whether you work in one of the fulfillment warehouses, or are a coder hoping to avoid the mandatory PIPs, it's the worst.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by patrick451 on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:51PM (#34860559)
The amount of trust you have in the S-team is truly mind boggling.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by patrick451 on Sunday February 19, 2023 @01:45PM (#34860507)
This is normal. All these companies claim be data driven, but when it comes down to it all of these decisions are based on feels. This applies just as much to technical rules as it does business decisions from the CEO. For example, when I have gone through infosec reviews, and I asked the reviewer to justify some rule with data, they can't do it, because it's just some wacky scenario they dreamed up but have no clue how probable/improbable it actually is.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by rullelito on Saturday February 18, 2023 @02:00AM (#34844674)
I'm working at a FANG and this is 100% accurate.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by vasco on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:22AM (#34845086)
I'm 7 years into fully remote, and will not work for a company that does even hybrid teams. You just need to work somewhere that sees the world as you see it instead of trying to understand any meaning behind megacorp decisions.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by sussexby on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:46AM (#34845526)
I’m nearly 7 years into hybrid/remote and am seeking opportunity to rejoin a proper collaborative working environment that’s physical, not virtual.

However, what’s right for me isn’t right for you and enforcing a rule one way or another does not work so I agree with your point.

Megacorps need to understand that we humans have a range of preferences and, if we’re to assume some prefer remote and some prefer office, then making a big decision as Amazon has will alienate a decent amount of workers. Cue calamity.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by throwaway426079 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:54AM (#34845577)
" a proper collaborative working environment that’s physical, not virtual."

If you believe that only physical environments can be properly collaborative then you invalidate the remainder of your post.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by JackFr on Saturday February 18, 2023 @05:03AM (#34845621)
The parent never claims that only a physical environment can be properly collaborative.

Literally the next sentence after the one you quote is “what’s right for isn't right for you”.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by throwaway426079 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:20PM (#34851222)
It reads exactly that way.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by sussexby on Saturday February 18, 2023 @06:08AM (#34845960)
I’m stating that I’m after an environment that’s physical, not virtual.

I’m not saying that only physical environments have those qualities - I’m saying through my experience I work better, feel better, and contribute better when I can communicate in a physical space and not a virtual one.

Again, as I say, whatever is right for the individual. If virtual works for you, that’s great, but I’m consciously stepping out of remote work as I really struggle with it.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by mulmen on Sunday February 19, 2023 @03:31PM (#34861543)
Collaboration isn’t a personal preference. By definition it requires at least one other party. In person collaboration is far more expensive in terms of real estate, time, and cognitive load. People who can work remotely effectively should be at an economic and productivity advantage.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by edgyquant on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:35AM (#34847209)
Even if they did claim that they are more than welcome to that opinion
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by mFixman on Saturday February 18, 2023 @07:12AM (#34846304)
That would make sense if closed offices became common again.

It's impossible to collaborate in an open office. It's hard to talk to my team if that requires yelling louder than the other 200 people in the floor.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by apple4ever on Saturday February 18, 2023 @06:25PM (#34852218)
Exactly. Offices would be so much easier to work in if everyone had an office. It boggles my mind that open offices are so desired by management.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by Lacerda69 on Sunday February 19, 2023 @05:26AM (#34856234)
They are magnitudes cheaper i would imagine.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by mFixman on Sunday February 19, 2023 @06:29AM (#34856655)
There's a nice middle point that Google used in 2012 with one office per ~10 person team team.

The offices are big enough to not be _too_ expensive, and small enough to enhance collaboration and concentration.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by anothernewdude on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:50AM (#34845547)
Exactly. Hybrid teams just makes some employees second class.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by postalrat on Monday February 20, 2023 @08:57AM (#34868099)
Why is that?
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by legutierr on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:56AM (#34845586)
> You just need to work somewhere that sees the world as you see it instead of trying to understand any meaning behind megacorp decisions.

This is a great philosophy to have when your skills are in high demand. What do you say to the people who might have trouble finding a full-remote job that pays enough?

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by vasco on Saturday February 18, 2023 @05:44AM (#34845834)
My life philosophy aligns with my own life, my perceived abilities and the environment around me to make me happy.

I don't think anyone is born and dreams about working remote doing engineering work in front of a computer for 8 hours a day. You end up doing a venn diagram of what you like with what the world offers and you decide what your values are.

If my life philosophy would include sipping margaritas at the beach or spending my days with my friends outside building an off-grid community I'd be out of luck because I'm not rich and my friends are not rich either.

Find a job that you like because you'll get good at it and your skills will be in high demand as well. Work hard and save enough every month to be able to walk away and into the company next door if your boss turns to shit.

My grandpa passed this philosophy to me and he was a plumber from a remote village in Portugal. He'd tell me how he kept to his values and didn't work for anyone that didn't respect him. He didn't die rich but he was proud in his work. Find what that is for you.

If people focused more on this instead of needing to place themselves on either side "get max salary" or "unionize the world" things would be way better.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by juve1996 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:16AM (#34847087)
Life is hard. You have to sacrifice somewhere. It's unfair. Our worker's rights have been further eroded. Megacorps dominate the space with no real competition insight.

But I still believe in individual agency. There are things individuals can still do to make things better. I feel for the edge cases of people who don't have choice. But in general, people have more choice than they think.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by edgyquant on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:34AM (#34847201)
It’s not unfair. 3 years ago no one would have pretended remote was a “right” and the reason people think workers rights have eroded is because they continue to pile on perks and nice to haves and pretend they’re rights.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by juve1996 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:46AM (#34847722)
It sure is unfair to say a role is remote and then change that in less than 2 years.

Either way you're missing the complete point of the post to harp on a meaningless detail. I was no way implying that remote work is a "right." I was simply pointing out how in many ways worker's rights have been diminished. One only has to look at the recent rail strike to see that, or the countless examples of wage theft, or the switching of hourly to salary to avoid paying overtime.

But despite all this we still have some agency and we should exercise it, even if things are "wrong" or "unfair." That's the point.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by edgyquant on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:06PM (#34850518)
It’s not, we in tech are just out of touch (on average.) Jobs and their requirements change all the time and most people deal with it or find a job more to their liking.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by pm90 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @01:03PM (#34849241)
> they continue to pile on perks and nice to haves and pretend they’re rights.

The evolution of worker rights has always followed this path. Introduced as perks, then standardized and encoded legally as rights. While there are outliers that get dunked on a lot ( eg on-site laundry at Meta) for the most part the perks have been entirely reasonable (flexible hours and schedules).

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by edgyquant on Saturday February 18, 2023 @09:33AM (#34847192)
Something like: I’ve been there and didn’t expect to work fully remote at any company. Fully remote has long been a luxury afforded to the upper echelons of companies in most places. I’m sorry you fell for the meme during Covid that all jobs were remote now.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by brandon272 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:08PM (#34851107)
Remote work is not some fundamental human right. If your skills are not in high demand, you have no leverage to make many demands about your work arrangement.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by tkiolp4 on Saturday February 18, 2023 @07:19PM (#34852628)
It’s not a human right, but more like the 40h/week right most of the first world countries manage to get.
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by mensetmanusman on Saturday February 18, 2023 @12:24PM (#34848773)
I’ve seen hours replaced by second in terms of communication speed ups by chatgpt. I’m sure that won’t show up on anyone’s productivity metric.

Why? Because the calculation is biased by how atoms move, not information.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by turdprincess on Saturday February 18, 2023 @06:40PM (#34852322)
Ive been in some "mixed" sessions lately where some are remote and some are in person and its the worst case scenario. I feel like a second class citizen when someone points a grainy laptop camera at a whiteboard they are drawing on. The second I can't grab a marker and contribute, I just lost my full ability to participate.

Fully remote works great - there are plenty of awesome collaboration tools (Miro for example) where you can collaborate. Fully in-person obviously works as well.

But with hybrid, someone always loses - either the folks in the room or the folks on the screen.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by seydor on Saturday February 18, 2023 @04:44AM (#34845512)
> Most of us don't even live near an office. What will this accomplish?

you will be fired without being fired

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by bick_nyers on Saturday February 18, 2023 @11:42PM (#34854502)
Just keep working remote then
Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by SergeAx on Saturday February 18, 2023 @03:58PM (#34851018)
> magically declare that all employees are 2.37x more productive now

If this is not true, other companies will include WFH in their offers and will kill two rabbits with one shot: win best talents and will make them more productive.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by bart_spoon on Sunday February 19, 2023 @10:07AM (#34858165)
I think these two are related and get to the core of the matter:

> Management – 10% of you are fired.

> Employees – but we were hired as fully remote. Most of us don't even live near an office.

I don’t think there is any solid evidence demonstrating on-site makes workers more or less productive than remote. But companies have demonstrated over the last 6 months that they overhired to an absurd degree.

This is just a way of further reducing headcount without having to actually do layoffs.

Re:Amazon will require employees return to the office 3 days... by roncesvalles on Monday February 20, 2023 @02:12PM (#34871591)
Until software companies acknowledge that the loss of productivity is due to overengineering and technical debt gumming up the machinery, the problem will not be fixed. It's not a people problem, it's very much an engineering problem.

Unfortunately when you're high up the management ladder, every problem looks like a people problem.