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Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by m463 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:33AM (#34819132)
> it took a few years or decades to be come publicized knowledge

So that makes me wonder how this is getting out. Is it a news organization such as an opposing organization, or outspoken journalists? Is it democratized news reporting via forums and social media?

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by kodah on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:47AM (#34819288)
In news there's journalism and there's reporting. This story is reporting, it doesn't use many adjectives and doesn't have much of a point beyond the statistics represented. It allows people to form their own opinions based on their own experiences around the details of this story.

Journalists on the other hand are often side characters to their stories. Their stories come with a point, sometimes called a narrative, that's available to guide you in a certain direction of thinking. Journalism is largely what makes people distrust the news. Omitting, minimizing, or highlighting a fact are all ways journalists and editors play to the narratives.

Gallup regularly does these kinds of surveys and they publish them by default. They almost always get posted in the AP. If you look at the AP version of this article it's almost word for word the same. That's to say, it's posted on fortunes website, but it's not a top headline. They're not suddenly, after many years of this criticism, having a "reckoning with truth in journalism". This is the medias version of, "These are not the droids you're looking for"

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by nhchris on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:06AM (#34819610)
> Journalism is largely what makes people distrust the news. Omitting, minimizing, or highlighting a fact are all ways journalists and editors play to the narratives.

Even your definition of 'reporting' can be (and is) easily abused to play to narratives, by the simple and necessary act of determining what is "newsworthy". Reporters will go by their biases and beliefs on deciding e.g. which homicides are "random" and not worth reporting, vs. which are indicative of systemic issues in society, and so require national attention.

Cherry-picking.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by karpierz on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:55AM (#34819418)
Well let's steelman journalism a bit; journalism provides context.

Reporting would say: "3 people died in car accident this morning."

Journalism would say: "3 people died in a car accident today, marking 4720 this year alone. Due to some new regulations increasing speed limits, passed early this year, car accidents are up 12%. And the federal government is looking to roll back more regulations, which are expected to increase fatality rates by 6%."

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by IIAOPSW on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:14AM (#34819726)
>Due to some new regulations increasing speed limits, passed early this year, car accidents are up 12%.

See, that's the rub. You've just said more than the data told you. There's nothing in the stats half of your premise which proves with any certainty that the increased speed limits are the cause of the change in accidents this year. Now you're pushing a political agenda, namely lowering speed limits, while presenting it as part of the basic record of events we call "news", rather than as part of the opinion discourse.

This was even a good faith example. If you were trying to lie with statistics, you could have done much worse.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by nathan_compton on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:05AM (#34820444)
I think you're wrong here. The idea that a news article should be a "basic record of events" is ridiculous. In this toy example, the most we could quibble with is the words "Due to" and those may be appropriate if there is a reasonable amount of evidence referred to somewhere in the article which suggests an association. In fact, I believe in the case of traffic accidents such a link is sufficiently well documented that the casually refer to it isn't a great sin.

I think this idea that we need to somehow strip all news of even the vaguest hint of a perspective is actually pretty condescending to the average news reader, imagining that they are so stupid and credulous that merely seeing a bit of bias is going to immediately warp their brains.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by this_user on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:36AM (#34820963)
For this to work properly, the journalists would have to be experts in the respective field, or would at the very least have to possess enough of an understanding to make these judgements. But reality has become far too complex for that, plus these articles are being written under severe time constraints. Ultimately, what will happen is the journalist using their personal or the editorial biases of the publication to create a narrative consistent with their world view. Whether or not that narrative has any basis in reality is not really their concern.

The question when becomes whether there is any value in publishing these most likely faulty narratives compared to simply reporting the facts. I would argue that there is actually negative value in the former, because the audience ends up less informed than if they had never consumed that piece of media.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by anonymouskimmer on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:15PM (#34821660)
> the journalists would have to be experts in the respective field, or would at the very least have to possess enough of an understanding to make these judgements.

This is why journalists will often attribute cause and effect interpretation of facts to expert sources.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by throwaway_75369 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:55AM (#34821303)
Hmm, I like the thrust of your point, here, and I do think that when people think critically about the news, they aren't "stupid and credulous".

But Gell-Mann amnesia is a real thing that educated, informed readers readily fall victim to, so it's clear that the media seems to have some kind of privilege of credulity.

I wonder if it's really an effect of people reading media primarily for entertainment - isn't there some old saying about "people who read the Times are less I formed than people who read nothing at all?"

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by dooglius on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:41PM (#34822177)
"3 people died in a car accident today, marking 4720 this year alone. Car accidents are up 12% since last year when city council rejected the proposed budget increase for more snowplows and ice control to meet the city's growing transportation needs."

"3 people died in a car accident today, marking 4720 this year alone. Car accidents overall have jumped 12% since AG John Smith added driving-without-a-license to the city's informal do-not-prosecute list."

In our toy example, all of these could be simultaneously true, and the data given does not support one cause over the other. Note that the "due not" need not be present, the intended implication is still clear. (For bonus points, read these examples again, imagining that overall driving increased by about 12% due to people working from home less.)

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by nathan_compton on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:57PM (#34824925)
Sure, there are a million consistent imaginary stories. My point is that _if_ a journalist has a reasonable sense that the speed limit regulations are related to the article in question or that the reader may want to know about them, then they should mention them. Indeed, all these other imaginary scenarios should also be mentioned if there is a reasonable case they may be involved in the increased rate of accidents.

The idea that the journalist should present only the directly related "bare facts" is so silly that I can't even take the suggestion as coming from a place of good faith.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by IIAOPSW on Friday February 17, 2023 @10:32PM (#34843598)
If, in your own words, there's a million consistent imaginary stories, which one gets the special designation of "reasonable"? If there are multiple possible stories that are all plausible explanations of the same data, then how is picking just your favorite one and reporting it adding value?
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by nathan_compton on Saturday February 18, 2023 @10:06AM (#34847407)
That isn't what a reporter should do, though. They should report on the news and related information, not just their favorite narrative. I'm not defending shitty reporting, just pointing out that the "bare facts" approach is ridiculous.

Knowing stuff is hard, reporting on stuff is hard, understanding what is read is hard. The solution to these problems is not, nor could it be, restricting one's attention to the "bare facts." Indeed, these are often quite hard to identify and agree upon. We should expect and cultivate a little sophistication in ourselves and our fellow citizens.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by karpierz on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:08PM (#34821519)
If you were going to take this in bad faith, I'm surprised that you considered "3 people died in car accident this morning" to be reporting. If you wanted to be pedantic about it, stick only to the facts, and avoid speculation/opinion, it'd have to be written like so:

"A person who our reporter spoke with who went by the name of Bob Dylan and claimed to be the coroner of James County, said that three individuals passed away recently, and he said he believes that they died due injuries similar to those involved in car accidents. Our reporter also asked the James County Sherriff's Department to corroborate, and a person who claimed to be the spokesperson for the James County Sherriff's department said that there were three individuals in a car accident last night, and they were taken to the hospital."

Anyways, I wasn't trying to write a rigorous example for each, I assumed that the reader could fill in the detailed. I just aimed to give the gist of what it should look like. You'd talk to experts, cite papers, etc.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by kodah on Thursday February 16, 2023 @03:28PM (#34825492)
In your steelmanned journalist example I think the discerning reader would be saying, "Is the agency themselves saying more fatalities are expected, is it the opposition, etc" The choice to omit is part of the narrative, because if people pick up that you're casually and selectively quoting opposition but making it sound pre-determined and official then they start viewing you as a folk singer.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by michaelt on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:56AM (#34819438)
> So that makes me wonder how this is getting out.

Hasn't Trump been talking about the 'fake news media' for 5+ years? And don't half of Americans lap that stuff up?

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by lockhouse on Thursday February 16, 2023 @09:59AM (#34819477)
Is he wrong about this particular issue though?

I know broken clocks and all, but just because you disagree with someone most of the time it doesn't mean that they are wrong about everything.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by MrMan on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:42AM (#34820099)
he used to love Fox, which is by definition fake news, he just didn't like the weak pansy liberal stuff.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by mjr00 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:59AM (#34820356)
The actual news on Fox News, i.e. not Tucker and the rest of the talk shows, is not fake news, even remotely. Absolutely has a conservative bias, but not to the extent it would qualify as fake news. It's even listed on Wikipedia a reliable source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Per...
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by brewdad on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:27AM (#34820808)
When the shows that draw the most eyeballs and are aired at the times most people are watching news at all, the morning shows and prime time, are almost entirely made up of half-truths and outright lies, I think it's fair to say Fox is an unreliable source.

Fox and Friends and Tucker Carlson are lying to viewers every day.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by bcrl on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:17AM (#34820652)
There's no way to distinguish between the fake news Fox broadcasts and the non-fake news. It's not like Fox puts a disclaimer up on the screen saying which stories are for entertainment purposes only.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by rootusrootus on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:49AM (#34821205)
Fox News is the clearest example of mainstream propaganda that I've ever seen. I take a pass through there periodically just to see what the aren't covering. Which isn't to say places like CNN don't sometimes pull that same stunt, but it's much more prevalent on Fox News -- they'll completely omit even really big stories that aren't what they think their audience wants to see.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by politician on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:58PM (#34822536)
Ground News is a great site to help you understand which networks are covering which stories and ignoring others. It's honestly eye opening the number of big stories omitted by the other large non-Fox networks.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by diimdeep on Thursday February 16, 2023 @01:07PM (#34822758)
Wikipedia reliable sources list is basically implicit whitelist, and there is implicit blacklist, news sources from countries with hundreds of millions of people banned from Wikipedia. All this is contradicting its core content policies. Reliable sources based solely on being Western, such as being located in the Western world, having a Western worldview, being owned by Western entities, or aligning with Western national interests or security policies.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by eatsyourtacos on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:26AM (#34819886)
>Is he wrong about this particular issue though?

I mean, yeah? His version of "fake news" is calling EVERYTHING that doesn't kiss his ass and lie to make him look good fake because what he actually says and does is so utterly ridiculous he wants to confuse everyone.

I'm not going to give you specific examples because that part of my brain is now closed off, but literally he would do X or say X on twitter. Then the media reports on it, in a very factual manner, and he just denies literal facts constantly.

So let's not use him as an example for this. Also, he would never call Fox News fake news.. so, that tells you everything you need to know. He calls anyone who doesn't do exactly what he says and report favorably on him "fake news".

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by lockhouse on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:36AM (#34820012)
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-polls-fake-news-fox-brett-bai...

Actually, he did call Fox News fake news at one point, although yes it was due to them running a story about polls that were unflattering to him.

However, he is still fundamentally correct about the issue that the media deliberately misleads or outright lies consistently enough to not deserve our trust, be it Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, or even NPR.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by anonymouskimmer on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:22PM (#34821803)
He was his own anonymous source to news media. Though I don't know whether the Enquirer should count as news media, per se. Given news was not its focus.

> However, he is still fundamentally correct about the issue that the media deliberately misleads or outright lies consistently enough to not deserve our trust, be it Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, or even NPR.

That doesn't make him, or any other source of information, more trustworthy than the corporate news media.

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by fwungy on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:57PM (#34824923)
Watch Dave Chapelle's SNL monologue where he talks about Trump. His take on the source of Trump's popularity is insightful.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by ryandrake on Thursday February 16, 2023 @10:56AM (#34820320)
Nowadays "fake news" is just a derogatory term against the news media in general, but the term used to mean something. If you remember, back to the 2016 election, there were literal fake online newspapers that sprang up and published essentially election clickbait. These sites had news-y sounding names, real-looking content, and were designed to look surface-level like legitimate news sites, until you dug a little deeper and looked around. People started calling these sites out as "fake news" but Trump quickly adopted the term, and nullified it by using it as a simple insult against actual mainstream news sites. But it originally meant "actual phony news sites".

> The term “fake news” became mainstream during the US election campaign, when hundreds of websites that published falsified or heavily biased stories sprung up to capitalise on Facebook advertising revenue.[1]

> Mr Trump and his supporters then adopted the term to describe media coverage critical of the President, especially that of The New York Times, The Washington Post and CNN.

1: https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2017/10/09/donald-trum...

Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by Damogran6 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:15AM (#34820620)
It's not so much that as 'everything he says is a confession'...He's pointing out fake news, because he's one of the biggest sources. He can't be wrong if he's to blame.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by base698 on Thursday February 16, 2023 @11:33AM (#34820934)
Classically, fake news was more of a left issue. Trump gave it a catchy name and stole the issue.
Re:Half of Americans now believe that news organizations del... by hedora on Thursday February 16, 2023 @12:11PM (#34821593)
Ah, yes. I remember getting the annual morning news paper every April 1st.

Seriously though, within a city, they had morning and evening editions (12 hour lag) hundreds of years ago. For national stories, the lag was more like a week, then dropped to 12 hours when the telegraph was invented. Also, back then, there were orders of magnitude more newspapers (multiple in each big city, and at least one in small towns), so most modern censorship techniques simply would not work. Yeah, Elon Musk would have owned a paper, but (by law) only one, and multiple other wealthy tech people would own papers in the same market.