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Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by derbOac on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:21PM (#34651078)
It's a really interesting piece but I feel the need to question the premise that there's a "wrong" or "right" with art criticism, as if the purpose of a critique is to reveal to the reader the true state of an artwork — as opposed to just being an expression of an opinion.

I realize that "getting it wrong" could be a shorthand for "being so different from the historical majority opinion" but the piece doesn't seem to approach things that way.

It's significant in a way because I think over time majority opinions have a way of stifling minority perspectives on things that are most popularly seen as "great art". I don't mean to sound contrarian, I'm just suggesting that maybe consensus about a given work isn't quite what it seems all the time, that there are social pressures and dynamics at play that sometimes distort how people might consciously consider a piece versus how they might react to it completely independently without labels.

I also think it points to other things, like art perception being contextually dependent. People change and their tastes change — it doesn't mean one perspective is invalid, just that it was occuring in a different time.

Of course, sometimes people just don't fully appreciate something because it's new and are looking at it with a certain lack of imagination. But I also sometimes think we look back at the past as if it were preordained, more so than how we see the future.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by skybrian on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:14PM (#34651442)
The part that particularly seems closed-minded now is not seeing how others might appreciate new music that you personally didn't like.

A music critic can't just say "I didn't care for it" and move on - or rather, they could, but then they wouldn't write the article.

I think the lesson here is more for the editors: maybe find someone who's a fan to write the piece? Or maybe we get a better picture now that aggregate ratings (like Rotten Tomatoes) are widespread?

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Andrex on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:02AM (#34651703)
> maybe find someone who's a fan to write the piece

Objectivity in journalism may not exist, but most poor quality journalism I find is directly correlated to how big a fanboy that person is about the particular subject.

You need intelligence when approaching criticism far more than reverence, is I guess what I'm saying. If someone can intelligently relate to me specifically why they might not like the Beatles, or specific song, in a way that I can understand, I would consider that person more trustworthy than the alternative.

But that relies on me, or rather the reader/audience, to be open and receptive to challenging opinions.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by skybrian on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:33AM (#34651840)
Well, okay, but here's my personal experience. When I created a Mastodon account, I decided to use it to post mini-reviews of accordion-related music from YouTube. (Because I play accordion and I'm interested in hearing unfamiliar kinds of music.)

I look around on YouTube for recordings I like. There are lots of recordings I don't like for whatever reason. I don't post them. Why bother?

So, nowadays, I'm not sure why anyone should spend time reviewing music they don't like. At all. What's the point? The slush pile is vast. Make the best collection you can of stuff you like. If other people find it good then maybe they'll start to trust your judgement.

Admittedly, I have a tiny audience, a newspaper is a little different, and sometimes people like to read a good takedown. But it seems unnecessary?

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by galaxyLogic on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:00AM (#34651960)
> But it seems unnecessary?

If something is extremely popular but you perceive something wrong about it of course that's a good reason to write about it.

At the same time many critics seem to just try to put artists down because that makes it seem the critic is above the artist because he can see the wrongness in the artist. Critics are wannabe artists.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by skybrian on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:50AM (#34652581)
I don't see any upside in trying to tell people that some music they love is crap.

It's different for other media, like an article about how a book or TV show or movie is historically inaccurate is sometimes fun.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by pbhjpbhj on Saturday February 04, 2023 @06:42AM (#34653696)
Why is it different for music, to the situation with movies, say? Music can have a narrative that is counter factual too.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by skybrian on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:35AM (#34655203)
Can you name a song with lyrics that you'd consider to be misinformation rather than poetry or fiction? Seems like it would be pretty rare.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by galaxyLogic on Sunday February 05, 2023 @02:48AM (#34662839)
> I don't see any upside in trying to tell people that some music they love is crap.

I guess it's just the wrongheaded logic of criticism: The critic must prove they are doing their job. They are "critics", right? Therefore they must criticize. :-)

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by ilyt on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:45AM (#34652231)
You still need to be in the know to review it properly tho and that often is married with being the fan of the thing.

That happens more in video games reviews than in movies but often reviewer reviews some title in niche genre well but it isn't anything worth attention for actual fan because it doesn't do anything special over different games in the title or is outright going backward.

But the "omni-reviewer" that reviews everything that comes their way won't know that, they play say RTS or some strategy game once every 3 years so anything that seems pretty competent gets a good score even if compared to the peers in the genre it might be weak. Ability to communicate flaws doesn't help here really that much if reviewer by nature of their generalism doesn't even have point of comparison.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by lelanthran on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:27AM (#34652441)
> they play say RTS or some strategy game once every 3 years so anything that seems pretty competent gets a good score even if compared to the peers in the genre it might be weak.

That's not how it is at all for games, though, is it? I mean, there are very few niche genres that gamers (even if they aren't reviewers) haven't tried.

A games reviewer will at least have already played the most popular games for each of the popular genres. You will find it hard to find a games reviewer who hasn't played the top RTS games, the top FPS games, the top Mobile games, the top RPG games, etc.

> That happens more in video games reviews than in movies but often reviewer reviews some title in niche genre well but it isn't anything worth attention for actual fan because it doesn't do anything special over different games in the title or is outright going backward.

But niche genres don't do well anyway. If the game is not a side-scroller, a platformer, a dungeon crawler, an RTS, an FPS, a point-and-click, an ARPG, a hidden object game, an RPG ... what exactly is it[1]?

If the game doesn't fall neatly into a genre, then it's not going to do well anyway, because ordinary players won't be able to review just like the reviewer won't be able to review it - what exactly do they compare it to?

[1] This is one of the problems that plagued Brigador, which didn't neatly fit into a genre and was a failure.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by largepeepee on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:33AM (#34652157)
>Or maybe we get a better picture now that aggregate ratings (like Rotten Tomatoes) are widespread?

Funny enough we are actually took a step BACK from marketwide aggregated ratings in recent years.

Using RT as an example, they changed their system in recent years so their shareholders had more control over the ratings, who can rate them and what is said.

They basically shifted from a simple internet movie rating site to slowly becoming another Hollywood mouthpiece with their selection of pro-Hollywood narrative critics and making it harder for normal people to raise opinions, we seem to be reverting back to the status quo.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by zdragnar on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:42AM (#34652216)
The wide disparity the frequently exists between critics and audience reviews on RT always stood out to me as interesting- I frequently found that the wider the gap, the more likely I was to agree with the audience rating.

It'd be a shame if the audience rating became less reliable in that regard.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by lelanthran on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:19AM (#34652408)
> Or maybe we get a better picture now that aggregate ratings (like Rotten Tomatoes) are widespread?

RT is not such a good example - didn't they recently start weighting reviews (viewer reviews count less and less)?

I think Metacritic still allows you to see the viewer reviews independently of the critic reviews. I remember using Metacritic in the past, and my general experience was that any movie with:

1. High reviews from the critics but low reviews from the viewers = probably trash, expect to be assaulted with some deeper meaning or message which is completely out of context.

2. Low reviews from critics but high reviews from viewers = Probably good entertainment, bring the popcorn but don't expect a deep message from the movie.

3. Consistently low reviews = absolute trash, don't waste your money

4. Consistently high reviews = appeals to a very broad segment of the population, probably appeals to you too.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by JauntyHatAngle on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:28AM (#34651820)
I mostly agree and welcome your point, but as a footnote, I feel what complicates things is that music (like all art) is both a technical craft which can be rated somewhat objectively in terms of technical merit, while also being subjective in "judging" its cultural significance, evocative nature etc etc.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by IgorPartola on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:29AM (#34652132)
Not just that. Where the music comes from is also important. For example, a traditionally masculine music genre being suddenly performed by a woman, and performed well, will stick out. See Queen Latifah as an example.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by yeuxardents on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:31AM (#34651832)
I honestly cannot tell if this is chatbot written at this point. I think I am now ready to quit reading this site. Equivocating and " quotes and then back to non decision...

I think I might be done with news.ycombinator.com, as I can no longer tell.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by lovemenot on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:39AM (#34651871)
History may judge your condescension to GPT-3 unkindly. It was, by any objective measure, the greatest AI development since GPT-2. Itself a landmark achievement.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by yeuxardents on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:37AM (#34651863)
I asked chatgpt to analyze the article, provide feedback, and analysis on why the premise of right or wrong might be incorrect.

I am now living in a simulation.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Eupraxias on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:01AM (#34651963)
That reminds me of the moment that I realized that I have been a chatbot for a really long time.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Eupraxias on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:59AM (#34651958)
These kind of chatbot comments should be banned. When the chatbot content sticks out from everything else like this, we don't need AI to fish it out.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Eupraxias on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:36AM (#34655214)
Oh dear lord, I was being sarcastic and meta! Can we unflag the parent? It was a legit statement, I thought.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by runsonrum on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:11AM (#34652021)
I have used ChatGPT but, can you ask it if it has responded to a specific article before?
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by bnralt on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:37AM (#34651859)
One of the first things I do when I'm considering a piece of media is I read the negative reviews. Finding out the reasons why someone doesn't like something is a good way to see if you'd like it yourself. For instance, most of the time I'm going to enjoy a film that gets dinged for being "confusing" than I am for one that gets dinged for being "bland." Others might find the opposite to be true.

It's not that I'm necessarily going to agree with the negative reviews. But I definitely find them much more useful.

It's a sad state of affairs when we're told that there's only one correct opinion about a particular piece of media and dissenting views are "wrong." We lose the deep insight that comes from looking at who likes and dislikes a piece and why. And it's hard to truly like something when liking it is presented as the only correct choice from the start.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by holoduke on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:40AM (#34652204)
For me as as well. Same for dislike buttons. I d like to see them. Shame they dont have it anymore at youtube.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by zdragnar on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:52AM (#34652269)
Interestingly, I don't think I really found dislike counts to be very useful, though I do go for negative reviews on books first.

Negative reviews tend to be a bit more articulate and specific about what they didn't like, and why they didn't like it. Pain points tend to stand out a lot more than positive things, especially if you go into an experience with the expectation that you'll enjoy it.

That said, there's also plenty of occasions where I've found nothing useful in the negative reviews, but found some positive reviews compelling enough to try a book.

Movies, TV shows and music I tend to ignore specific reviews altogether, and just go by the description and overall positive/negative average from ratings. There are so many more dimensions that short form reviews generally aren't useful at all.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Sakos on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:43AM (#34652535)
I wonder how useful it would be for a dislike button to require a brief statement explaining why. I'm not a fan of dislike/downvote buttons in general because there are so many different reasons why something could be perceived as negative, and what might be considered negative by one person might be a positive for somebody else. It just feels like noise to me.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by andrepd on Saturday February 04, 2023 @05:29AM (#34653364)
Eh, tbh dislikes on YouTube were more of a popularity contest for the outrage du jour or a sign that some streamer told his followers to brigade something.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by noizejoy on Saturday February 04, 2023 @06:16AM (#34653567)
I’m still disappointed that YouTube/Google didn’t find it worthwhile to figure out brigading and render it useless.

Wouldn’t that be an entirely solvable problem? Or am I expecting too much from machine learning?

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by viraptor on Saturday February 04, 2023 @08:14AM (#34654203)
Given the gigabytes of data that just viewing the content generates for them, I'm sure they could correlate those actions. But given it took them many months to deal with extremely obvious comment spam... I have low expectations.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by fzeindl on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:44AM (#34652228)
This works for technology or products as well. The first thing I do when evaluating a framework is googling the phrase "technologyXY is terrible" and see what comes up.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Sakos on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:40AM (#34652517)
I do this for everything. Negative or low score reviews for products on Amazon are the most useful for deciding whether something might not meet my needs.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Semaphor on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:57AM (#34652615)
Though it’s very easy to fall into the opposite trap and get disillusioned with everything. Some people just have bad luck or like to complain a lot.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Sakos on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:09AM (#34652674)
It's important to evaluate the negative reviews for yourself. Often enough they'll complain about things that won't bother me or aren't relevant to the product itself or what I need it for. The frequency is also an important data point. If a single review out of 1000 says that it broke after a day, it has far less weight than if 10 or 50 reviews complain about quality.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by colechristensen on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:31AM (#34652778)
> Some people just have bad luck or like to complain a lot.

But this is exactly what you look for. How many of the bad reviews are people who seem like they whine a lot, how many are just unlucky, how many have seemingly reasonable complaints, etc.

How dumb are the bad reviews? If most are just stupid, it’s probably a good product, if you can find at least one review that really seems like it was by a real person with a real issue, it’s an indicator that some of the reviews are at least real.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Semaphor on Saturday February 04, 2023 @04:57AM (#34653215)
Yeah, but my issue is I find products, almost all having quite a few bad reviews that all seem real and about serious issues, and then I end up only getting a cheap item because if it sucks at least I didn’t spend much.

But maybe that’s just a "me" issue ;)

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Sakos on Sunday February 05, 2023 @11:42AM (#34666310)
I've had this issue too, actually. I think choosing a cheap version is a perfectly valid solution. Either the cheap item meets your needs or you notice things that bother you and that experience can inform your next purchase.

In some cases, I've instead decided that a completely different kind of product can fill the same need in a better way.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Semaphor on Monday February 06, 2023 @03:56AM (#34675006)
> notice things that bother you and that experience can inform your next purchase.

That’s what often ends up happening, but then I also don’t want to be wasteful and buy something new before the old thing breaks.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by ilostmyshoes on Saturday February 04, 2023 @07:29AM (#34653967)
I've also personally seen a pattern in low score reviews on Amazon or other shopping sites where the person leaving the low score just simply didn't understand how to use the item properly, in some cases this is a majority of the bad reviews.

Another is when they had a problem with something external to the item itself such as shipping.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by derbOac on Saturday February 04, 2023 @09:45AM (#34654857)
One time I was reading reviews of teapots on another company's (not Amazon) website. They seemed like really well-made beautiful porcelain teapots, and I couldn't figure out why there were so many people leaving disappointed reviews about the teapots cracking. Eventually after noticing certain details and reading certain reviews, I realized the reviews were all from people who had been using the teapots to boil water, as if they were kettles. Suddenly these comments went from reviews of the teapots to an index of how many people don't understand the difference between a teapot and kettle.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by pydry on Saturday February 04, 2023 @10:07AM (#34655015)
I feel like there's a big gap in retail websites for reviews that encourage more back and forth between the reviewer and reviewee and maybe some independent arbitration to draw this stuff out.

Something like a cross between an issue tracker and a lightweight court of law.

If Amazon were whacked around the head with an antitrust stick like Microsoft was in 2001, this is the kind of innovation that might actually flourish from newer startups.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by jemmyw on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:17AM (#34652708)
I've tried this for books and ended up not reading any books. Well articulated reviewers always seem to find pretty damn good reasons to dislike any book. Buying on recommendation has worked ok, I still end up buying a few that I can't get into, but at least I find some to read.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by macpete42 on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:14AM (#34652695)
This makes a lot of sense since quite often many positive reviews are just fake and paid.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by msla on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:29AM (#34652131)
I distinguish between criticism and reviewing, where criticism is, ultimately, about putting a work in context, and reviewing is about telling someone whether a work is likely to be worth their time. Both can be done in the same piece, of course, and the longer reviews include some aspects of criticism at least to the extent of an after-action report: This work was good/bad, so let's explore what worked/didn't work to contribute to that, which is done in the context of the general language of whatever medium the work is in.

On the other hand, reviews don't need to do that, and the shorter ones don't, and criticism certainly doesn't need to engage with the question of whether a piece of media is at all enjoyable.

So a review can be right or wrong from my perspective based on how well it reflects my tastes.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by chongli on Saturday February 04, 2023 @01:44AM (#34652230)
Yes exactly. Proper criticism tries to leave preferences out and instead investigate the context of a piece and how it influences other work, how the work was influenced by the context in which it was created.

Look at a piece like Picasso’s Guernica [1] without any context and in all likelihood you’ll consider it an ugly, confusing mess. But then if you take some time to read the history [2] and it completely changes how you look at the work.

[1] https://www.parisupdate.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Paris...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Sakos on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:46AM (#34652554)
That's an important point. I don't believe reviews should leave out preferences. They should be explicit, yet distanced enough. I judge games through the reviews based on how I've contextualized a reviewer's likes and dislikes. My favorite reviewers might not like a game, but admit that the things that bother them might not bother somebody else and they point out things that might appeal to people with different preferences.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by chongli on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:58AM (#34652620)
I think it's important to make a distinction between criticism as a formal, academic discipline and reviews which are meant to give practical advice about whether or not a particular work is worth the consumer's time.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by Sakos on Saturday February 04, 2023 @03:08AM (#34652671)
Yes, definitely.
Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by atoav on Saturday February 04, 2023 @02:27AM (#34652445)
The decision what is good art and what is not is a decision indivdiuals and/or groups within society take. Those indivdiuals/groups might not necessarily be in total overlap with each other. You might e.g. have particular sub-groups who enjoy noise music, something the majority of people wouldn't even call music. That sub group might consider a overwhelming fraction of popular music bad music. Similar a particular country fan might consider rap and techno not music at all, or bad music while they like their own thing very much.

Sometimes (often?) these critiques contain an element of social or cultural connotation as well. Techno definitly is hedonistic, rap and hiphop are connected to certain demographics and classes within society, as where the Beatles. That means a criticism should always also be seen in that light: Who criticizes whom from what standpoint? If that country fan dislikes the latest and harshest noise rock release that might be a good guide for fellow country music afficionados, but someone who likes noise rock might rather take that negative review as a compliment. Both sides could try to use the border they draw towards the other as cultural capital within their own ingroups.

That means when the Beatles became popular a lot of the criticism they got was also criticism the old generations had towards the younger generations. It was not only about the music, it was also about who decides what good music is.

Today (thankfully) we live in times where objectively good art is revealed as the delussional idea it always was.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by bambax on Saturday February 04, 2023 @05:03AM (#34653245)
> as opposed to just being an expression of an opinion

Well if you're a critic you're supposed to have an informed opinion, something that is not just your personal, knee-jerk reaction but a well thought-out intellectual construction that explains what's good and what's less good and why.

Otherwise what's the point? I can get an opinion from any patron at any bar, or from dogs even.

Re:Why Did the Beatles Get So Many Bad Reviews? by cageface on Saturday February 04, 2023 @05:58AM (#34653491)
To completely dismiss Sgt Pepper is about as close to objectively wrong as you can get in music criticism.