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Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by karpierz on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:27AM (#34642287)
I don't know that it's an "incredibly smart" anything; I think it'd be better described as incredibly well-read, with poor discretion.

But there's definitely uses for a tool that produces a lot of boilerplate content that a human can then proofread (ex: writing cover letters, filling out unstructured paperwork, etc.)

Edit: I personally underestimated the use-case, because the "more optimal" thing to do when auto-filling out paperwork would be to define a formal data-structure with annotations for each field, and then have a system read annotations and spit out autosuggestions. But this is a lot of overhead.

If you can have a system that takes in arbitrary text, parses it, and fills it out with pretty good guesses, then that can be much more viable than the previous approach, as it doesn't require an overhaul of, say, the way the US bureaucracy generates paperwork. It's all on the consumer-end, the producer doesn't need to cooperate.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by VBprogrammer on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:36AM (#34642442)
I dunno, I recently learned about how the Toyota Synergy Drive system works in detail. Despite being the type of person who'd be interested in that kind of thing I thought it was not generally well understood, I've only come across one website which described it in detail.

I asked ChatGPT about it and it game me a fairly surface level answer. I then asked it for more details and it went into detail far beyond what the average person would be able to tell you. I thought that was quite impressive for a fairly obscure bit of mechanical engineering.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by karpierz on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:42AM (#34642552)
Out of curiosity, I'd have the following questions:

1. Would you be able to notice if it made something up, given that it's going beyond the detail that you know?

2. Did it have any details that aren't covered in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by hooande on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:09PM (#34644102)
what exactly do you think its going to make up? "The Hybrid Synergy Drive runs on apples and fairy dust"? I doubt that OP wants to build one of the engines, they just want a concise explanation.

I've seen gpt hallucinate all kinds of things. But very rarely for something like explaining a process or system.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by svachalek on Friday February 03, 2023 @01:39PM (#34645834)
It writes things that sound reasonable in context. So it will likely give something that sounds like a Popular Mechanics article about how some kind of machine works, but it may not really be this particular machine that you are asking about, or any actual machine in existence. That's the tricky thing about it, if it actually said "fairy dust" you know you can stop reading, but what it actually writes typically needs some actual understanding of the subject to refute.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by webstrand on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:43AM (#34642560)
In my experience from asking it questions about things that I know well, the deeper you get into the weeds with it, the more likely it is to invent some kind of extremely plausible-sounding but incorrect answer. How confident are you that what it told you is actually correct?
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by tempest_ on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:28AM (#34643337)
That is the one thing I think about when people say "I used it to learn X and it was very good" but when people are learning they are not in a position to to judge if what they learned is correct.

A lot of other stuff is just regurgitation of a wiki article.

Still it is very interesting and definitely a step forward.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by beepbooptheory on Friday February 03, 2023 @01:10PM (#34645330)
And then we must remember that wiki articles themselves can also be quite wrong.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by broast on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:47AM (#34643637)
That's what I like to use it for. To come up with plausible answers for questions that people don't have correct answers for yet, and then probe the reasons behind it. It can be very creative and insightful in such uses.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by webstrand on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:19PM (#34644303)
Yep, this is how I've been using it too. The responses I get are often good starting points for further investigation. Often it comes up with better terms to find the answer that I am seeking than I had originally.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by logifail on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:52AM (#34643742)
> It can be very creative and insightful in such uses

I once worked with a very smart woman who at that time worked in marketing for the airside retail stores at a large international airport.

If anyone from outside her immediate sphere asked her what she did, she would typically say "I tell lies for a living".

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by happymellon on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:52AM (#34643757)
So it's a junior dev that reads lots of blogs?

This sounds like a lot of interviews I've conducted over the years.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by andrepd on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:51AM (#34642697)
Well it's essentially a (good) search engine then, isn't it? Somebody somewhere wrote that description, and chatgpt understood your query and fetched it.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by dsr_ on Friday February 03, 2023 @10:58AM (#34642811)
A good search engine gives you references you can read, because they exist.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by enragedcacti on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:04AM (#34642929)
> Despite being the type of person who'd be interested in that kind of thing I thought it was not generally well understood

Its an extremely well understood piece of technology and has been for decades outside of Toyota. Here is a 2005 paper that accurately models the fundamental behavior of the Prius HSD [1]. There are dozens of pages that explain it in various detail, including ones with live simulators of the power split device. [2] There are tons of forum threads of amateur Prius owners chatting about the internals.

I don't say this as a dunk, but to point out that a person's perception of chatGPT's capabilities are heavily influenced by their familiarity with the domain.

[1] https://www.engr.uvic.ca/~mech459/Pub_References/01500979.pd...

[2] http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by VBprogrammer on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:12AM (#34643054)
I think you and I have different definitions of not generally well understood. I would be impressed if more than 1 in 1000 people could describe it to the level of "it's a planetary gearbox with 2 electric motors used as inputs and outputs to control the effective gear ratio".
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by logifail on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:56AM (#34643847)
> I would be impressed if more than 1 in 1000 people could describe it

Q: What use is it attempting to measure ChatGPT's capabilities on something vs the average person on the street, or vs the average user with access to google.com? What does that actually tell us?

Maybe I'm showing my age, but if one wanted to learn or discover something, wouldn't one first typically try and find a reliable source/expert in that field or subject?

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by enragedcacti on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:58AM (#34643882)
ahh, I misunderstood what you meant. In that case can you explain to me why its meaningful that chatGPT can sometimes explain things for which there are tons of resources online to learn about them but that a lot of people aren't familiar with? I legitimately just don't understand why that is an interesting bar to clear, especially given that it can also unpredictably lie about some aspects of the thing its explaining.

It would perhaps be interesting if it were such a hard topic that only 1 in 1000 could be capable of understanding it, but I would hazard a guess that most people familiar with the prius who don't understand its drivetrain probably don't understand it because they don't care, not because its too complicated to understand.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by freejazz on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:35PM (#34651570)
who cares? that's literally trivial
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by bamboozled on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:26AM (#34643285)
Because it’s really trained off datasets you’d have access too via search engine, if you couldn’t find the info yourself, it’s likely just making a lot of the answers up, convincingly
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by swatcoder on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:28AM (#34643344)
That's exactly the wrong sort of thing to turn to ChatGPT for. In probing it for more detail, you're giving it increasingly helpful hints on how to answer your questions in a way that makes you satisfied, regardless of accuracy. That's what it's optimized to do. And because you're working from a humble and curious understanding of the topic yourself, it can and will make up all sorts of things that make you believe its insightful because you want to believe it.

It's the same technique a stage psychic uses to demonstrate that they knew all about your late uncle and his peculiar love of ducks.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by darkwater on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:44AM (#34643591)
GP stated that they asked ChatGPT about a topic they already were familiar with, from other sources. And that the answer made sense.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by Retric on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:59AM (#34643905)
ChatGPT is optimized to seem to make sense, it’s like talking to a world class con artist you won’t notice it’s talking nonsense. Thus is subtly dangerous in ways that aren’t obvious in the beginning.

Sure it seems great at writing boilerplate code, unfortunately it’s really good and writing the kind of bugs that you don’t notice. This is maddening in a completely novel way, like working with an actively malicious autocomplete.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by 2devnull on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:51PM (#34644964)
You can verify it’s accuracy. The metaphor of “con artist” is a poor one. It has no adversarial interest. A con artist does. Furthermore, con stands for confidence. A con artist manipulates confidence. Gpt and other language models are “what it says on the tin.”

Not understanding the fallibility of LLM is not the fault of the technology. It’s the user’s fault.

Not at all like a con artist. More like a tool that can be dangerous in the hands of the uneducated. That is a very large set of human tools, from nuclear reaction to pharmaceuticals to the automobile. Perhaps we just need “drivers ed” for large language models.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by Retric on Friday February 03, 2023 @01:22PM (#34645526)
The problem is needing to verify accuracy makes it a really bad search engine replacement. A good con artist is generally truthful, they just know how to seem truthful even when they lie which exactly the issue with trusting ChatGPT etc. You can’t tell if the model is telling bullshit unless you already know the truth.

This doesn’t make them useless in general, just a poor fit if you can’t easily fact check the results.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by 2devnull on Friday February 03, 2023 @02:37PM (#34646686)
Good point. I don’t think they will be a good search engine replacement, but maybe a powerful supplement for some users. And honestly with SEO and other issues even search engines can be manipulated in ways that an average user might have difficulty detecting.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by je42 on Friday February 03, 2023 @02:48PM (#34646808)
Easy, you use a second source and double check.

In google you would go to another search result.

For ChatGPT you actually need to verify via Google or actually try it when it is code.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by Retric on Friday February 03, 2023 @04:00PM (#34647640)
What’s the point of using ChatGPT when searching if you still need to verify the information through another search?
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by huimang on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:01PM (#34643956)
Conversely I asked it some simple questions about some songs' harmonic structures, and music theory, and it got things quite wrong.

There's already an example of it in the article where it incorrectly stated the tritone of F was Bb.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by yellow_postit on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:49AM (#34643682)
To OP’s point what’s with the gate keeping on “right” or “wrong” ways to use it?

It’s a tool. It has flaws. It can be useful and if it is, have at it.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by b3morales on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:17PM (#34644266)
If there was a hammer that, held one way, drove nails perfectly in one blow, and held another, made it look like the nail was driven but actually broke it right at the junction so that the work pieces weren't fastened... I'd say that the second way was the wrong way to use that hammer.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by efitz on Friday February 03, 2023 @02:01PM (#34646221)
Not only wrong, but dangerous, because nails are often used to fasten structural elements of houses, and incorrect but hard-to-detect flaws like this could result in collapse.

Similarly, if ChatGPT gives you an answer high in truthiness but low in accuracy, it could negatively impact you, whether loss in credibility if you repeat nonsense in front of someone knowledgable, or even worse if you use the incorrect knowledge to try to solve a real world problem.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by Retric on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:01PM (#34643954)
The issue is that approach maximizes its flaws. It’s like shooing yourself in the foot with a nail gun, that’s objectively the wrong thing to do.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by naniwaduni on Friday February 03, 2023 @03:25PM (#34647222)
It's a tool whose flaw is that sometimes it secretly does the exact opposite of what you're trying to do with it in a way that's only detectable if you didn't already need it.

It's like Babelfish, but for monoglots.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by hansvm on Friday February 03, 2023 @01:06PM (#34645257)
If you're able to validate the results though (so they logically fit together, or with that newfound vocabulary and pseudounderstanding can you search for that information elsewhere), is that really such a bad thing? I've been doing exactly that to quickly ramp up on some new numerical algorithms I previously didn't know existed.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by naniwaduni on Friday February 03, 2023 @03:27PM (#34647256)
That's a really big if.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by hansvm on Friday February 03, 2023 @03:57PM (#34647611)
Why? It's the same standard you need to apply to anything else.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by bnralt on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:05AM (#34642943)
> I don't know that it's an "incredibly smart" anything; I think it'd be better described as incredibly well-read, with poor discretion.

But likely much better read and with much better discretion that most of people writing content these days.

Which I think is part of the point that people are missing. ChatGPT’s output might not be as good as the best writing, but most of what people read is mediocre content with questionable accuracy. Being better than the majority of the writing being consumed is still a pretty big deal, even if it’s not better than all of the writing that’s being consumed. Especially since we can expect ChatGPT to get better.

The same is true for AI art. Could you hire a trained artist and work with them to do a better job? Probably, but most people don’t have the time and money to pursue such a project.

There are still trained artisans producing high quality physical goods that you can place an order with. But the masses have greatly benefited from the factories that have produced lower quality products that are much more widely available, and available at a moments notice. It’s not wrong to point out when the mass produced stuff might not have the same quality as the products produced. But if you only focus on this aspect you miss the reason why mass production is important.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by logifail on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:46AM (#34643619)
> ChatGPT’s output might not be as good as the best writing, but most of what people read is mediocre content with questionable accuracy.

I agree with this, but I think we may be missing the point.

Why are people reading mediocre content with questionable accuracy?

The problem is not: how to quickly and cheaply create content which is marginally less mediocre and marginally more accurate than what we currently have.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by jhawleypeters on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:31PM (#34644568)
> Why are people reading mediocre content with questionable accuracy?

For most people that consume content, accurate information is not a priority. Being entertained, belonging to a group, or satisfying some immediate need or want matter more for most people, most of the time.

It's doubtful that people who consume content will change their wants to prize accuracy (most of the time). Partly, this is because accurate, precise, and/or qualified statements are often boring and hard to follow.

Consider also incentives that drive content creators: 1) the internet means many people can find a platform for many messages (democratization of speech is supposed to be a virtue of the internet) 2) the "freemium" advertising model means that most messages can be financially rewarded, regardless of accuracy

Engagement and financial rewards are much easier to get with lies, drama and controversy than with accuracy, precision, and qualified statements. In my experience, most people cannot find something worth striving for in the modern world, and settle on whatever comes easiest.

> The problem is not: how to quickly and cheaply create content which is marginally less mediocre and marginally more accurate than what we currently have

I'll grant that this is not a problem you're trying to solve. However, this sounds like exactly the arms race that content creators are engaged in until it stops paying.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by logifail on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:59PM (#34645144)
>> The problem is not: how to quickly and cheaply create content which is marginally less mediocre and marginally more accurate than what we currently have

> this sounds like exactly the arms race that content creators are engaged in until it stops paying

I don't think they're trying to achieve these things at all. Look at the broken incentives you raised in the first part of your response, that's what this is about, and all this is about.

Content creators mostly don't care about how mediocre their output is, and they mostly don't care about how accurate it is either, as long as the clicks keep coming.

We don't need (and can't expect) ChatGPT to "fix" this, the underlying problem is the broken incentives, not the actual quality - or lack of it - in the content.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by jhawleypeters on Saturday February 04, 2023 @12:32PM (#34656251)
I don't disagree, with one caveat. I'm still curious about your opinion on your own question:

> Why are people reading mediocre content with questionable accuracy?

How would you answer this?

I don't believe bad incentives explains it fully.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by bnralt on Friday February 03, 2023 @12:14PM (#34644204)
A lot of it is for entertainment, even when it’s infotainment. News reporting, Wikipedia, current affairs podcast, Tweets, Reddit, Hacker News comments, etc. The inaccuracies here aren’t that important, because the vast majority of this content is just being consumed for dopamine hits and not actually putting the information to use.

Some of it is out of necessity. I don’t think it’s controversial to say that many people use Stack Overflow, and though some of the answers there are very good, others aren’t. If someone needs help with a specific problem they’ll often post a question somewhere (Reddit, Stack Overflow, etc.), and the quality of the answer they get is a roll of the die - even whether they’ll get an answer at all.

Some of it is because blog spam has made traditional searches much more difficult. There’s another comment that says that there are comments better than Reddit and Hacker News, but if you go into a discussion about Google you’ll find that a lot of people have been doing things such as appending “reddit.com” to searches because otherwise they’ll drown in a mountain of blog spam.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by ChildOfChaos on Friday February 03, 2023 @01:28PM (#34645660)
"Why are people reading mediocre content with questionable accuracy?"

Because it's literally everywhere you look and is very hard to filter due to huge amount of it everywhere. Particularly if you are trying to learn and grow on a certain subject, it's difficult to filter out what you don't know is 'mediocre' or 'questionable' at least not until you've already consumed it.

Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by joenot443 on Friday February 03, 2023 @03:32PM (#34647318)
If you can think of a single individual who can demonstrate knowledge on the fly with the same accuracy and breadth as ChatGPT, I think most of us would agree in calling them “incredibly smart.”
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by HarHarVeryFunny on Friday February 03, 2023 @04:01PM (#34647648)
If ChatGPT was a person, you'd immediately realize something was very wrong with them. Some kind of idiot savant perhaps who'd memorized an encyclopedia but was confused by how it all fit together, or maybe someone hallucinating and delusional, only able to hold coherent thoughts together for brief stretches of time before babbling gibberish that made no sense.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by freejazz on Friday February 03, 2023 @11:48PM (#34651635)
My gosh. Enough with the anthropomorphizing.
Re:ChatGPT: The Slickest Con Artist of All Time by joe_the_user on Friday February 03, 2023 @03:42PM (#34647466)
Yeah, I think making a decent, nuanced analysis of ChatGPT and related systems (which the gp starts trying to do) requires one to avoid terms like smart/intelligent/etc. The term intelligence is naturally not fully defined and primarily used by humans to rank each other. So our human intuition about intelligence comes from the ranking we do of people. IE, we have the intuition that "if they can do X, they can easily do Y" about a given person and such an intuition clearly shouldn't carry over to even a very complex machine.