> That said, you shouldn’t be allowed to smoke and masks should be mandatory on planes still in my opinion.

That is a very reasonable approach. We are billions of humans living in close quarters. Let's make a little effort to offer high quality spaces to everybody. This happened with seat belts in cars, many people were offended by the idea but it is saving many lives each day.

>> Instead of getting angry at aviation corporations who save money and maximize profits by degrading

Sorry! I skipped over the part where I was disturbed and disgusted at the fact that American had cut their filter expense by 80%. My friend's dad was not a smoker but was also appalled that the airline took that decision once they were free from the particulate strictures imposed by cigarettes, because he believed it made the air in the cabin filthy.

So, overlaying all of my angst about children and anti-smoking zealots, I do understand that we've all been thrown into this arena by corporations who have lowered my standard of living. Those corporations have, to be fair, raised the standard of living of people who fly with 3 sick kids to Hawaii, when from my perspective without massive credit they would be raising those kids in a coal mine. In a way, it's almost socialism.

How are you not understanding that they didn’t “cut filter expense by 80%”, but simply they get 1/5th as dirty?

If not less. My educated guess is they used to get changed more often than required due to clogging, and now they’re just changed based on some minimum required.

Have you ever lived with a smoker? My grandmother’s house used to have to be repainted every other year before her death. Do you think we just “greedily cut painting costs by 80%” because we repainted it once in ten years since, or might it have to do with walls yellowing due to particulate?

They get less visually dirty, but the same amount of human breath passes through them. It's not just that; the airlines cut the fresh air intake as a portion of circulated air. By not being as visually noticeable, they didn't need to change the filters as often; yet that meant that the filters would have 5x the viral load when they were finally changed out. They used the elimination of smoking as an excuse to save money on basic hygiene. Does this make sense?

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Where did you even hear about this specific number in how often they used to change their filters vs now? Do you have any idea what the reasons are for them changing filters, how they decide? What the minimum is? How they measure it?

You seem to not really even understand how air filtration works.

If one day people aren't allowed to smoke, does the volume of air passing through the filter drop by 80%?

Do all the other particulates, e.g. viruses and bacteria, drop by 80%?

No? So what makes you think the filter needs to be changed 1/5th as often?

I'm guessing you've been smoking so long, you don't know what it's like to not live in polluted air. When you change an air filter, repaint a house, wash the inside of a car, you can immediately tell whether somebody is a smoker. It's fucking gross, and I suspect that it's not 1/5th, but probably 1/20th as often. "What makes me think that" is plain simple experience.

I don't have the full paper handy (and can't be bothered to look this up just for you) but the highlights should be enough for you on this one:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00489...

Covid exists, it always will at this rate, and the rest of us won't be suffering for your insecurity about your own immune system. You wear a mask if you like. If it works, you have nothing to worry about.

It's a basic courtesy to wear a mask if you know you have a respiratory issue (whether it's a cold, the flu, or Covid doesn't really matter). Masks work much much better when the sick person is wearing them.

I think it should also be something that cabin attendants can force you to do - if they notice you have cold/flu/Covid symptoms, and you are not wearing a mask, they should be allowed to bring a mask to you and ask you to wear it, and you shouldn't be allowed to say no.

No, it's a basic courtesy to stay home if you are sick. Airborne diseases cannot be prevented by mask wearing between sips of your courtesy peanuts and soda.

And plenty is lost about a society that focuses more about preventing illness than just staying generally healthy. Smiling is good for you, engaging with your fellow humans, with full facial expressions available for communication and connection, are absolutely essential to a happy and fulfilling life.

So you expect people who have planned an expensive vacation and booked a flight to cancel everything if they get the sniffles? Should they also self-isolate and avoid grocery shopping, all public transport etc for 5-10 days after their first sore throat? And note, I'm saying this as someone who has just renounced a week-long vacation and two non-refundable flights because I tested positive for Covid, even though I barely had any symptoms, because I do believe the risk to others is too great. Not so for a cold.

While masks are far from 100% efficiency, they are still much much much better than doing nothing, while self-isolation for minor illnesses like a common cold is not in any way realistic.

Also, I'm explicitly not saying that we should always wear masks - the dangers of un-treatable, un-vaccinatable Covid (that 100% justified universal mask wearing) have passed. But, when you're sick and for various reasons have to be in closed spaces with others, wear a mask.

Yes, actually. If you know you've got the flu or some other mild-but-still-serious illness, you don't go outside your home unless it's absolutely necessary (eg: going to the hospital, buying essential groceries).

And before you say "I don't care if I pass my flu around.": Stay home /for your own sake/. What the fuck do you think is going to happen if your mild illness takes a turn for the worst right when you're overseas? I hope you have good traveller's insurance, or otherwise sufficient savings to afford medical and emergency care out of pocket.

Winter in the Midwest, especially if you have kids, is an unending parade of mild cold symptoms. It's not reasonable to ask everyone to seal themselves inside forever.

What about some common cold? That's still very spreadable, but it is far from a serious illness.

Also, if you have mild respiratory symptoms (say, you're sniffling and your throat is a little sore), do you immediately go and run various tests to see what specific pathogen it is, or do you take some symptomatic treatment and go about your life? Why not add "and wear a mask outside" to that?

Oh mah goodness.

Courtesy peanuts are another thing from a bygone era, decades ago...

Once upon a time, air travel was only available to people who needed to go somewhere or had the means to do so. We're in a little gap right now where first class is diminished to almost steerage, but private jets are a little too expensive. It's probably a reflection of the widening rich/poor gap. There used to be a way for people who earned in the top 20% to travel without having to subject themselves to the other 80%. Now you really have to be in the top 0.1% to travel without the garbage.

The irony is that the top 0.1% and the bottom 80% both have shit manners, and only when you make the top 20% act well and put on their shoes do you have something resembling civilization.

Yeah but what you gonna do if they do say no?

You can’t kick them off, you’re not going to get violent with them and coerce them so the only answer is turning the plane around if they don’t and how do you think the other passengers will react to that.

End of the day the rest of the world has moved on and no longer consider all this an issue and would rather just get on with their lives without inconvenience and yeah we can imagine a world where they have a bit more empathy for those that haven’t but I just don’t see how you can imagine that scenario playing out.

You explain to them nicely that they will be arrested and/or put on a no-fly list once they arrive at the next airport. It's the same with anyone breaking other rules on an airplane mid-flight - such as smoking, vaping, spritzing perfume or various other activities that are normal in other situations but illegal on an airplane.

How do you think the mask mandates were enforced mid-flight when they were universal?

Also, everything in saying is already common practice in much of the world, especially in East Asia.

You misspelled "can't be bothered to contribute to the wellbeing of the people around us". Incidentally, you think wearing a rated mask for a couple hours qualifies as "suffering"? When did notionally adult humans get this soft? Try working 10 hours straight in a tyvek bunny suit and full face respiratory PPE. We'd be carting you off my jobsite in a wheelbarrow after 30 minutes.

So, I also think politesse is really a critical skill and function in society. I've never smoked in close proximity to anyone without asking them if they minded if I lit up first. I also have never coughed on an airplane. Never. Not once. I've flown upwards of 200,000 miles in my life. I don't understand this urge people have to spread their germs as soon as they get seated and buckled in. I know the air is dry; control yourself. Really, try to control yourself.

So what you write is really the basic truth: Try to contribute to the wellbeing of people around you. That shouldn't be so hard.

Agree, but with one amendment.

Coughing is not necessarily the problem. You can cough without having a respiratory disease, and respiratory disease can transmit without coughing.

> without asking them if they minded if I lit up first

It's impolite to ask.

> I also have never coughed on an airplane

lol, sure

I do contribute to the wellbeing of the 95+% of the people who choose not to wear a mask and want to engage in human connection with the full range of emotional and facial expressiveness we were blessed with for that purpose, by not focusing on the irrational belief that wearing PPE 24/7 is even remotely possible or desirable, and accepting the statistical reality that in 2023, the vast majority of the population have been exposed to several strains of Covid. No amount of hiding from it prevents the acquisition of it. But plenty of warmth and light is lost in the world from the social constraints imposed by mask-wearing.

The discussion was about wearing a mask when on a plane, not about wearing 24/7. Nobody asked for that so don't straw man it.

In some Asian countries it was already common courtesy to wear a mask if you even suspect you might have a respiratory disease before Covid. Saying everyone suspecting a respiratory disease should stay at home is fine but detached from reality, people need to go places.

Ergo, wearing a mask in closed spaces is a compromise between being grounded and being an a** h***.

Edit:

About this

> I do contribute to the wellbeing of the 95+% of the people who choose not to wear a mask and want to engage in human connection with the full range of emotional and facial expressiveness we were blessed with for that purpose

What exactly is the benefit strangers in a closed space (like public transportation) get from seeing your facial expressions? What kind of human connection do you expect with strangers on public transportation? Believing the viewing of your face to be to the benefit of the public is narcissism unlike any other.

That's a lot of words, all utterly self-serving, for being a self-absorbed prick with a wildly inflated notion of how desirable your interaction is for random-ass strangers. Shove the 24 hour strawman where the sun doesn't shine, we're talking about not being an ass in enclosed spaces solely because you're too delicate to handle even the most basic respiratory PPE for any length of time.

Right! And if you can have covid and not put on a mask, why the fuck can't I smoke next to you on a plane?

Because regulating microscopic airborne diseases is impossible and beyond dumb. Every country that tried to do so failed to do so, even with the most Draconian laws imaginable.

Sure. But how is that any different from regulating the burning of leaves?

Covid doesn't crash planes.

Smoking can.