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Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by wrp on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:21PM (#34348758)
I've read that a single-payer system is very unlikely in the USA, due to political forces. The tremendous inefficiency of the American medical system increases costs, but also provides more jobs, and those job-holders vote.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by bruce511 on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:45PM (#34348924)
In the USA its all about the money. Those "political forces" are not a grassroots movement, people in the street demanding insurance-based healthcare.

No, it's well organizes, very well paid, lobbying on behalf of a profit-based health system. A system that generates lots of profits for nice big companies.

And make no mistake, they're not going to roll over.

And sure, doctors are depressed because they're finally coming to realise that medical care (in the US) is not about "helping sick people" (despite their good intentions.)

Doctors and nurses set out with the noblest goals, then find themselves inside a system where the one true goal is to separate people from their money. They rile against "adminustrators" while at the same time failing to note that those administrators are the _reason_ for yhd business, and actual doctoring is just medical janitoring.

Yay free markets!

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by dmitrygr on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @11:05PM (#34349055)
> are not a grassroots movement, people in the street demanding insurance-based healthcare.

> No, it's well organizes, very well paid, lobbying on behalf of a profit-based health system. A system that generates lots of profits for nice big companies.

I am not a lobbyist or an owner of an insurance company. I am a "person on the street". I do not want single payer.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by asdff on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @11:15PM (#34349117)
Can I ask why? Even right wing think tanks agree that medicare for all would save 2 billion a year in healthcare costs at least

https://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/healthcare/484301-22...

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by dmitrygr on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @11:17PM (#34349134)
It is simple, calculating, and heartless.

When there is a fixed amount of X available, a fair division of X across Y people gives everyone X / Y.

When you need more than X / Y, you are screwed (ask anyone in england who's needed cataract surgery on their second eye and was told that QoL improvement was not there, like it was for the first, so GTFO)

Since I can afford to buy a lot more than X / Y of healthcare for me and my family, should it be needed, the outcome for that limited and, to be honest, complete set of people whose well-being i care about is better in the current system.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by bruce511 on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @11:32PM (#34349231)
I appreciate your honesty.

I completely agree that the current system is excellent for those who can afford it, and queuing-based-on-worth certainly appeals to those with worth.

In the US this worth translates into money, which translates into lobbying. You are not marching in the streets because you don't need to. Your money speaks for you.

I say this not to patronise you, since you clearly understand this is the case. I say it merely to point out that this system works for the few, not the many. And yes it works well for the few.

Regarding your cateract example, if the queue is need based, and you have two patients, then one with 2 cateracts is ahead of someone with 1. That's another system, a system I agree which would be most distressing to someone with 1 careact and lots of spare cash.

I get that any system other than the current one will make you worse off. Equally I hope you see that any system at all will be a massive step forward for huge numbers of people.

Sure, I get it. I prefer systems that favor me. The seething masses aren't "real" to me. I don't know them like I know me and the people I care about. I care about my medical needs now, not some hypothetical "other person". Like you, I can pay for my medical, and I appreciate that I can.

But I also wonder if this is the best way. It works for me, but maybe there's something better for us all.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by mledu on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:05AM (#34350547)
I will also add that many problems in the US and other countries stem from the perversion of incentives and benefits of the few over the many. What I mean is that keeping this broken system in place as it greatly benefits the insurance companies, of which there are a few. It’s so valuable that they have the money and resources to buy the politicians, pay for the media campaigns and lobby the propaganda outlets to mitigate any power the populace has to address the issue. This allows industries to control pretty much all policy in the US. It’s a sad state of affairs.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by foldr on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:33AM (#34350735)
> a system I agree which would be most distressing to someone with 1 careact and lots of spare cash.

It wouldn’t be distressing to someone with lots of spare cash in the UK because they would just get the surgery done privately. There seems to be a common misconception that private healthcare is not available in the UK.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by foldr on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:32AM (#34350728)
> ask anyone in england who's needed cataract surgery on their second eye and was told that QoL improvement was not there, like it was for the first, so GTFO

A bad example, given that private cataract surgery is quite affordable in the UK. You could quite easily pay that much in the US even if you had insurance.

https://lp.opticalexpress.co.uk/cataract-v1-0/?cam_id=20230&...

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by tellmelies on Thursday January 12, 2023 @06:44AM (#34352137)
private care exists in the UK.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by maxerickson on Thursday January 12, 2023 @07:20AM (#34352442)
X isn't fixed though.

New technology, new knowledge and training all increase X. It's relatively fixed at a given moment in time (where your point is very true), but society shouldn't be making a major structural decision one moment at a time.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by maxerickson on Thursday January 12, 2023 @07:16AM (#34352402)
The article says $2 trillion over 10 years, that's $200 billion a year.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by Gibbon1 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @05:29AM (#34351597)
Lobbyists have been successful convincing you of something in their paymasters interest and not at all in yours.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by freedomben on Thursday January 12, 2023 @01:21PM (#34358083)
I despise the current system, but arguments like this do a lot of damage to the reform cause.

Aside from the incredible arrogance of assuming that GP is just so much stupider and more manipulable than you, it's also factually wrong in enough cases that it instantly discredits you. For example, many people who are upper-middle-class and above are better off in the current system.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by CogitoCogito on Thursday January 12, 2023 @12:39PM (#34357447)
The US could have medicare for all and additional private insurance simultaneously.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by noobermin on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @10:45PM (#34348929)
That is far too simple, as if citizens voting made a difference. Today, single-payer systems are overwhelmingly popular in the US, but one has yet to be implemented. The political corruption (known as "campaign contributions" which is "free speech" in the US after the citizens united decision) ensures that it won't happen, despite it being overwhelmingly positive in polling year after year on both sides of the aisle.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by Der_Einzige on Wednesday January 11, 2023 @11:40PM (#34349290)
It will also massively hurt global drug and medical research.

We are the leader in it partly because we pay these exhortation prices when the rest of the developed world simply won't play that kind of game.

I'm okay with biting that bullet, and taking a global reduction of health research by some double digit percent for awhile, but that's a serious unintended consequence of single payer.

I'm a Bernie voter who supports single payer, but it's not sunshine and roses everywhere, and crooked capitalism really does do some "not bad" things for us.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by cudgy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @09:21AM (#34353834)
> It will also massively hurt global drug and medical research.

This may not be the case, since much research is subsidized by the government and educational funding providing labs that train the scientists the pharmaceutical companies utilize. Single-payer may result in lower costs and therefore more money for support of research and laboratories. Also, pharmaceutical companies would not need to spend vast amounts for marketing their drugs direct to consumers.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by nradov on Thursday January 12, 2023 @01:18PM (#34358028)
The government subsidizes much of the basic research needed to identify candidate drugs. However, private companies usually pay for the human trials necessary to bring new drugs to market. A stage-3 clinical trial can cost >$1B with no guarantee of success. It's a huge financial risk.

In theory we could nationalize the whole industry, and let government bureaucrats decide which clinical trials to fund. I'm skeptical whether that would produce better results. Government employees with no skin in the game have a poor record of picking winners.

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Thursday January 12, 2023 @01:47PM (#34358476)
I don't know, many of the major drugs, like penicillin, insulin, thorazine, birth control etc were developed without those hurdles, and not in the USA. But US gave us Viagra)
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by amf12 on Sunday January 15, 2023 @09:45PM (#34396213)
> It will also massively hurt global drug and medical research.

I doubt it would. Private drug companies would still exist and charge the same money regardless of whether the insurance is paying for it or "the single payer system".

Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by cudgy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @09:11AM (#34353712)
Not sure I agree with this. Lower cost of care via single-payer would seem to create more jobs not less. Would be nice to find out though.
Re:The Collapse of U.S. Healthcare – The Perspective of a Pr... by red-iron-pine on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:22AM (#34355898)
Pull up a list of the Fortune 500. Look how many US healthcare companies are in the top 100. Many in the top 20.

That, plus the loosening of donation rules aka "corporations are people", is all you need to know about the state of American healthcare.