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Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by jgilias on Thursday January 05, 2023 @09:51AM (#34260328)
In theory.

In practice the market has spoken as to what kind of a form-factor people find the most useful for personal transportation in different climates and economic development scenarios. There’s no reason why ICEs couldn’t have supported the kind of vehicles some people imagine other people need.

The market has spoken, EVs only started gaining traction when they started resembling actual cars in form and function. Think of it as parallel evolution. Dolphins and fish.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by hannob on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:20AM (#34260821)
"Let's build bike lanes that are so scary only the bavest will dare to use them - and also subsidise cars in any way we can." - "The market has spoken, people want cars!"
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by SuoDuanDao on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:36AM (#34261131)
Well, the market has also spoken as to what kind of councils get elected and what kind of plans those councils approve. Of course, that's in large part because car owners pay infrastructure taxes cyclists don't. But that's also precisely what the market is - the segment who's paying. If wishes built livable cities there'd probably be more of them.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by fowkswe on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:40AM (#34261240)
The market is rigged by an industry(ies) (auto, oil) to develop society in its favor. Without a major 'refactor', the US doesn't have a chance at efficient urban design that would support individual use transport.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by jcampbell1 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:51AM (#34261447)
It is rigged because people want high speed climate controlled transportation. Prior to oil and autos, there were enclosed carriages pulled by horses.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by fowkswe on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:53AM (#34261508)
The market was rigged by oil and auto before cars were climate controlled.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by jcampbell1 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:01PM (#34263806)
There are antique cast iron boxes that were filled with hot charcoal to keep carriages warm.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by californical on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:45AM (#34261320)
Cyclists have cars too and pay the same taxes, since it’s basically unavoidable in the US.

But also bikes cause negligible damage to infrastructure and barely require any resources compared to cars, so the costs are usually much lower for bike infrastructure.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by mschuster91 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:52AM (#34261476)
The problem is that it's not just the people who decide who gets elected. Like it or not, the chances of winning an election highly correlate with advertising budgets, and the fossil fuel and car industry has sunk dozens of billions of dollars in campaign contributions, (S)PAC donations and other legal and illegal forms of bribery to make sure their interests were taken care of.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:12AM (#34261934)
>Like it or not, the chances of winning an election highly correlate with advertising budgets,

This is just BS/lies at the local level.

Moneyed PACs aren't fighting it out over councilor, selectman and planner positions for random suburbs.

Pretty much all the money these candidate dispense is either self raised or comes from an official political party who don't really doll out meaningful amounts to these elections

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by mikestew on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:30AM (#34262284)
As one who has run for local office in a Seattle-area suburb, yeah, there's no oil industry money sloshing around. At best one might get a few local businesses (at best), and some individuals for small amounts. If you're the big swinging genitalia incumbent, you might even be able to afford yard signs without dipping into personal funds!

One would seem to win local elections by being the incumbent, and knocking on a lot of doors.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by mikem170 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:06PM (#34263886)
Slightly different angle than the parent post:

What about the state and federal subsidies for road infrastructure? A locality that wants to go a different (less car dependent) direction would be leaving that infrastructure money unspent, which isn't fair to the local voters who contributed tax money to the state/feds. They rigged it so that the locals paid for the roads via their tax money, their only choice is to take the money and build more roads, or kiss the money they sent to the state/feds goodbye.

Wouldn't the above kind of hamstring local politicians? Would it be safe to assume that the pro-car lobbyists at those higher level of government want to keep it this way?

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by comte7092 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @12:01PM (#34262820)
The issue is that you have path dependence in what gets built and the resulting constituencies.

When everyone already drives cars (the US), there’s significant opposition to investment in other types of infrastructure/built in support for investments in car infrastructure. Whereas there are plenty of cities around the global where such constituencies exist for other modes.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @09:54AM (#34260385)
The market is profoundly distorted by single use zoning, parking minimums, density maximums, wide (and high speed) stroads, and other urban design choices that force long journeys. It's also not safe to be on an ebike surrounded by electric Hummers, F-350 super duties, and your normal "whole kindergarten class in the blind spot" Escalades.

Having just spent a week in Utrecht it's very clear that "the market" can certainly show a preference for ebikes over cars.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by rangersanger on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:20AM (#34260825)
The situation in Utrecht isn’t a function of “the [free] market” though. It’s distorted by significant taxation of cars and subsidization of biking. It’s legislation on both sides, and American legislation can change, especially locally.

Look at bentonville Arkansas for an example.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by galaxyLogic on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:26PM (#34264201)
But does "free market" mean you are free to pollute the air and cause a climate crisis? Is that the kind of freedom we want?
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by rootusrootus on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:04AM (#34260537)
What's your justification for saying that it's the US with a profoundly distorted market and not places like Utrecht?
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by hannasanarion on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:33AM (#34261081)
How about the fact that America's most walkable and transit-accessible neighborhoods are also the most expensive and highest demand?

People want this kind of development, they flock to it, and they are willing to pay astronomically high prices to get it. The government keeps the supply low with exclusionary zoning that makes all types of construction except car-centric single family housing illegal.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by keneda7 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:05AM (#34261772)
You have evidence of that claim? I took a look around me. The most expensive and highest demand areas are actually not transit accessible at all and walking is not really feasible as the houses have lots of land and are very spread out. I am in the Sacramento area for reference.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:58AM (#34262782)
Yes, Granite Bay is a great place to keep your sports car collection, but places in Sacramento where you can walk and bike command a premium compared similar places without the same walkability.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by keneda7 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:02PM (#34263819)
But you are moving the goal posts here. The person I responded to didn't say compared to similar places without the same walkability. They said "the fact that America's most walkable and transit-accessible neighborhoods are also the most expensive and highest demand". Granite bay shows this to not be a fact.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by tomtheelder on Thursday January 05, 2023 @12:58PM (#34263746)
Well for starters Sacramento is just a really poor example. Most of CA isn't. It's a consequence of hyper aggressive SFH zoning (~80% of the SCAG area is SFH, used to be even higher) and the era in which CA grew being the mid century period.

There basically aren't any properly transit served and walkable areas in Sacramento. Closest would be Midtown and Richmond Grove, but they aren't really very good at all compared to neighborhoods in cities with actual infrastructure.

But despite that they are _still_ some of the most expensive neighborhoods in the area on a cost to sq foot basis. The trend of walkable transit served areas being in high demand is near universal across the US.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by keneda7 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:09PM (#34263935)
Again just like the other poster you are trying to move the goal posts. The comment did not say some. The comment said "the fact that America's most walkable and transit-accessible neighborhoods are also the most expensive and highest demand". I provided a single example that proves this statement is not a fact.

edit: comment not commit

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by tomtheelder on Thursday January 05, 2023 @02:23PM (#34265091)
I don't have a metric for in-demand, but as I said, they are amongst the most expensive on a per-sq-ft basis, which is a much more useful metric for "expensive" than total cost. I didn't move the goalposts at all.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by keneda7 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @03:16PM (#34265869)
Again you are moving the goal posts.

I will break it down for you. The original poster said 'most expensive' not the 'most expensive on a per-sq-ft basis'. You are arbitrarily adding the words on a per-sq-ft basis because you FEEL like its much more useful. You provide 0 evidence to support this.

For example here is evidence that most people besides you feel that total cost is a much more important and useful metric. The follow sites selling homes list total cost as the main metric NOT the price per sq foot: https://www.zillow.com/ https://www.realtor.com/ https://www.movoto.com/ https://www.redfin.com/ https://www.trulia.com/ https://www.homes.com/

Edit: Here are the top three sites on google when you search "most expensive areas to live in the us". A three seems to use median home price not median price per sq ft. https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/most-expensive-cities-i... https://realestate.usnews.com/places/rankings/most-expensive... https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/08091...

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by Hugsun on Monday January 09, 2023 @09:07AM (#34310456)
To be fair, the comment didn't say "every expensive and high demand neighborhood in america is walkable and transit accessible" either.

Never forget that most statements, especially imprecise ones like the one you quoted can be interpreted in many ways. It is very easy to find an interpretation that is incorrect, especially if you disagree with/dislike the premise.

The reason I say this is that your single example didn't seem to disprove the statement in my eyes. I read the statement as meaning that walkable neighborhoods are in most cases in much higher demand than other neighborhoods in the same region.

I don't really think either of us is wrong, more that the imprecision of the statement and language in general can be unfortunate and cause disagreement.

Also note that nobody will ever respond well to being accused of a logical fallacy. They are useful to understand what is happening and to rile people up. Not so much to convince anyone (that doesn't already agree with you) about anything.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by Gregoriy on Friday January 06, 2023 @04:00AM (#34272567)
I would add that the most expensive are the areas with biggest density, naturally with this kind of traffic a city council would create as many means of transportation as possible.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by ballenf on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:10AM (#34261886)
Which is why I'm always surprised by the makeup of the coalition of voters that support strict zoning. Personally, I don't understand how zoning isn't seen an impairment of property value requiring ongoing payments from the government to the owners, with the idea being that if the zoning is a benefit to the community then the community's taxes should be paying for that benefit. As it is, it's a hidden tax that prevents open discussion and accurate cost/benefit analysis.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by rootusrootus on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:47AM (#34262593)
That may be true in some places, but I'm skeptical of any causal relationship. To use Portland as a example familiar to me, the urban area is the least wealthy. The most expensive, exclusive neighborhoods are around the edges and have awful transit service. Looking at bigger cities, what's a better example? You certainly don't move to Manhattan just because it's walkable.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @12:02PM (#34262834)
"You certainly don't move to Manhattan just because it's walkable."

depends on the person. People might move there because of the "vibe" or "excitement" and that tends to go hand in hand with places you can walk.

If it counts I emigrated in large part to be somewhere nicer to walk, but I am unusual. Not unique, though! Jason Slaughter (of NotJustBikes) moved to Amsterdam from Canada explicitly for its urban design.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by Karrot_Kream on Thursday January 05, 2023 @02:28PM (#34265163)
Depends on what you mean by "wealthy". Cost per sq. ft. of housing in the urban area of Portland is much higher than the suburbs of Portland. That's indicative to me of higher market demand in the urban area.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by logicalmonster on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:55AM (#34262712)
> How about the fact that America's most walkable and transit-accessible neighborhoods are also the most expensive and highest demand?

I'm not entirely sure that correlation implies causation in this case.

Do most people move to cities specifically because they're somewhat walkable with good public transportation, or do people move to cities for other reasons such as more access to better paying jobs?

Would people in cities rather drive to work if it was possible rather than taking a chance every day that the people next to them on the bus/train weren't some strange/risky people?

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:57AM (#34262760)
There are as many reasons for moving as there are people. I lived in Berkeley even when my job was in Newark because I hated the idea of living in a parking lot with a mayor (credit to Ghost Ride the Volvo's apt description of Fremont)
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by akgerber on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:15AM (#34260744)
The massive state, federal, and local bureaucracies shaping the public & private realm to always guarantee easy parking for automobiles & a network of high-throughput roadways between them yet only occasionally & reluctantly doing the same for other modes of transportation. Note that guaranteeing easy parking for automobiles also results in destinations being so far apart that other modes of transport usually become impractical.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by vidarh on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:29AM (#34262269)
Everywhere is distorted. As such it's meaningless to insist one or the other is preferred - it's down to an environment heavily influenced by policy. As such, choices can change if policies change.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:56AM (#34262747)
I don't think I said that. All places people live, aside from frontiers, have rules applied to them and those rules affect how people get around. The Netherlands has different rules than the US, and within that framework the market (I didn't say the word free) shows a preference for ebikes.

Similarly, when I lived in the US I had to go 1.1 miles to the nearest coffee shop (or shop of any sort), and opening a coffee shop in my neighbourhood would have been illegal, and shut down very quickly. And that wasn't even all that far from the downtown of a medium-sized city (Sacramento).

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by Karrot_Kream on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:55PM (#34264634)
In lots of the US it's illegal for developers to propose anything other than Single-Family Homes. They are codified to have large minimum size requirements and often have setback requirements forcing the house to be a certain feet away from the street. Businesses are legally required to be segregated from residential used, even corner stores. Lots of businesses in the US are zoned to mandate a minimum amount of parking.

The justification for a lot of these zoning laws is explicitly that developers and the market will not provide adequate home sizes or parking, so minimum requirements are forced on developers. When law forces huge houses, no mixed use, and huge minimum parking lots, the only built environment that emerges is a car dependent one. Older US suburban neighborhoods, like the post-WWII suburbs, had smaller (900-1200 sq ft.) homes because these minimum lot and floor area size requirements weren't in place yet.

If you're curious about areas with different land-use requirements, there are cities in the US like Boston, Berkeley, or Emeryville (just off the top of my head) with more permissive zoning laws that have much lower car modeshare than other parts of the US.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by dsfyu404ed on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:07AM (#34261833)
>The market is profoundly distorted by single use zoning, parking minimums, density maximums

None of which they have in the developing world yet those nations become wealthier people buy cars basically as soon as they can make the economics pencil out.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @12:00PM (#34262800)
Cars are a great way to show you've become wealthy until everyone has one and suddenly driving isn't as pleasant. The developing world (vague terminology there, though - would somewhere like Bangkok count?) tends to have mediocre transport and no infrastructure to stop drivers from killing people riding bikes or walking.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by peoplefromibiza on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:01PM (#34263800)
> Utrecht

is not representative of common reality.

It is also not much representative of "market forces", cars have to respect very strict "Urban Access Regulations" (similarly across Europe, but in Holland in particular)

Not that it is bad in general, but Utrecht is not a good example of what will happen around the World and actually make a difference.

China + India will soon be inhabited by 3 billion people combined, Utrecht has only 500 thousand residents. It's basically a glitch in the matrix.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by CalRobert on Thursday January 05, 2023 @04:39PM (#34267099)
Small note - Utrecht is not in Holland.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by peoplefromibiza on Friday January 06, 2023 @07:19AM (#34273885)
Right, I translated in my mind from Italian Olanda.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by ambientenv on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:20AM (#34260816)
What if the market, often times a manifestation of social and cultural greed and ignorance (and acquiescence and conformity and manipulation), is wrong? What if the market, which has fundamentally brought us to the brink upon which we find our collective selves and is driven by short term profit motives, cannot be trusted to do the right thing for the sake of the future rather than the immediate or even near term? What if the market, the deity that capitaism worships, is only interested in self preservation and not at all concerned with sanctity of all life on the planet.

I do believe it is both interesting and frustrating that people (in general) fail to challenge the validity and utility of their own beliefs, even when those beliefs have been shown to not hold up under the scrutiny of others. Then, there is also normacy bias.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by galaxyLogic on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:34PM (#34264304)
What's kind of silly is the adulation of "market" as some kind of God. Talking about, or implying that "markets are always right" is a diversion, a red herring by those who are served by such "markets". We need markets (super and other types) but just because we need them does not mean they are an intelligent being who is "always right". Is Greed good? Is Greed our next God? I think it was proven in a movie already that greed is not good.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by ldh0011 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:22AM (#34260871)
I don't think it follows from the fact that most people drive (buy) cars in the US that they actually prefer it. Corporate lobbying and politics have ensured that you can't function in the vast majority of the US without a car. People in cities in Europe that support and/or prioritize bike/pedestrian traffic see many to most people preferring it. I went through childhood, uni, and the first year of my professional life living in car-dependent (but still nice) places. I moved to a city where I can (and do) live without a car and I vastly prefer not having to drive. I suspect many who say they prefer cars haven't even had the opportunity to live somewhere where they aren't a necessity.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by pjmlp on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:24AM (#34260919)
People that live nearby city center prefer them, get a few more KM radius away and sunddenly cycling to city center is no longer so much fun.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by ldh0011 on Friday January 06, 2023 @02:45PM (#34279911)
80.7%: Percent of the US population living within urban areas https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/geography/guidance/g...

The fact that some US urban areas are less dense and more car dependent than most European urban areas is at least in part due to the reasons I mentioned already. Obviously people who live in rural areas will need and prefer cars but my point is that it is hard to say "Americans prefer cars" when most Americans have never had the opportunity to live somewhere where they don't need a car.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by 778hbff on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:18AM (#34260785)
> In practice the market has spoken as to what kind of a form-factor people find the most useful for personal transportation

That market contains the heavy lobbying by oil firms and car industry to keep trains at the sorry state they are in.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by zozbot234 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:15AM (#34260739)
Streetcars are "EV's". They've been gaining traction for a 100 years and more.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by AstralStorm on Thursday January 05, 2023 @10:20AM (#34260817)
They also tend to carry more traditional batteries (lead-acid) as they tend to be connected often to the grid.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by bertil on Thursday January 05, 2023 @09:59AM (#34260464)
“The market” spoke twice, during the oil crisis of 1975. It was made very clear to said market that if oil was priced at competitive levels, people who made that decisions would be bombed out of existence and the memory of men. Horrors are committed every day, including today, in Yemen, in your name. Starvation, genocide, rapes…

There is nothing more shockingly unethical and disgusting to pretend that killing millions of people every year and destroying entire countries is somehow moral because of “the market”.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by saint_fiasco on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:14AM (#34261972)
Those other kinds of ICE vehicles are supported in poorer markets. In the Third World people use motorcycles and scooters and so on all the time, for all sorts of things.

If lithium becomes scarce, electric vehicles become more expensive. An increase in the price of vehicles produces a similar effect to a decrease in people's incomes, so the market would push people towards smaller vehicles just like in the Third World now.

As a concrete example, tiny electric cars are common in China. Amusingly, the government doesn't like tiny cars because they are hard to regulate. It really is the market that has spoken. https://restofworld.org/2021/tesla-vs-tiny-cars/

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by jollyllama on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:31AM (#34262296)
UK and USA have some of the lowest rates of motorcycle usage in the world, they're part of the transportation solution in almost every other nation more than they are here.

It's just never considered because the types of people working on policy in this area aren't motorcyclists.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by TexanFeller on Friday January 06, 2023 @08:44AM (#34274465)
Motorcycles are unavoidably far more dangerous than cars, that's the reason it's not seriously considered in nations that are rich enough to use cars. I used to ride. Had a major crash and got lucky. My relatives that rode lost organs. Several of our biker friends died or spent months in the hospital after their wrecks.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by jollyllama on Friday January 06, 2023 @10:18AM (#34275563)
It would be interesting to see the ratio of deaths per 100 million miles driven in motorcycles vs all other motor vehicles across countries.
Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by jgilias on Thursday January 05, 2023 @11:27AM (#34262219)
Answering to my own comment to answer the broader discussion.

- I’m not from the US and I’m not talking about the US market;

- I don’t believe “the market” provides some value judgement. Rather, it’s just the aggregate behavior of people under their existing realities. We can and should aim to change those realities, but ignoring them because “they’re wrong” will not yield workable solutions.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by mikem170 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @01:40PM (#34264401)
I wish the market did a better job of ensuring that car owners pay all the related infrastructure costs, as opposed to other taxpayers. Taxes and tolls for everything, including public parking spaces.

Gas would cost more. Car ownership in cities would cost more. Roads outside of cities would cost more. Trucks damage roads more than cars and would have to pay more. Etc. It's not a free market if these things are being paid for by all taxpayers, including those who don't drive.

Re:Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric ve... by otabdeveloper4 on Thursday January 05, 2023 @03:24PM (#34265992)
I guarantee you 100 percent that there are orders of magnitude more electric scooters in the world that electric car-shaped vehicles.

You are simply wrong.