News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by COGlory on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:02AM (#34193746)
I don't understand. The bill was passed with an overwhelming, veto-proof majority. Then it sat on the Governor's desk until she made changes (after intense lobbying)? But the NY legislature is not in session, but the bill is signed? So how were the changes approved by the legislature? What is the precise legal mechanism here? Is this legal? My initial impression is that this is an illegal act of tyranny and should be met like that. The governor should be impeached.

Or, the very fundamentals of the American democratic system have been eroded to a point I previously did not comprehend. This is not anything like the picture Schoolhouse Rock painted about how this all works.

Also, with a veto-proof majority, why on earth would the legislature ever even agree to any changes?

Also also, fuck the governor.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Animats on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:59AM (#34194036)
The amendment happened back in May 2022, apparently.[1] You can read the pre-amendment and post-amendment versions there.

It was pretty much gutted. Right to repair for farm equipment was removed entirely, and rights involving digital devices made far weaker. That got press coverage in June 2022.[2] Other than cell phone screen and case repair, it doesn't seem too useful.

[1] https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2021/s4104/amendm...

[2] https://www.techspot.com/news/94843-new-york-senate-official...

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Jon_Lowtek on Saturday December 31, 2022 @08:12AM (#34196146)
The current debate is about an agreement mentioned in memorandum 93 ( https://twitter.com/JonCampbellNY/status/1608327624526548993 ), which describes changes that were not part of the amendment in May 2022. I also thought it may just be a bad summary of those changes, but it clearly details changes that were not done in that may amendment. So it is either a very badly written memo, or there is something more going on than can not currently be seen in the public paper trail on the senate website.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Animats on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:26PM (#34198536)
The bad stuff went in back in February, 2022, and was adopted in May 2022. Compare the "Limitations" section of S4104 and S4104A. That's what guts the bill. Here's the "sponsor memo" on the amendment:

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ORIGINAL AND AMENDED VERSION:

This version makes technical clarifications to the bill, including providing that the requirements will apply to products with a value over ten dollars, adjusted annually based on the consumer price index. Another adds that nothing in the section will require that an OEM or authorized repair provider make available any parts, tools or documentation if the intended use is for making modifications to digital electronic equipment. Others provide that nothing in the section will require an OEM or authorized repair provider to make available parts, tools or documentation for 1) public safety communications equipment used for emergency response or prevention purposes by an emergency service organization, 2) where it may be in violation of federal law such as with gaming and entertainment consoles, related software, and components, or 3) home appliances with digital electronics embedded within them.

Manufacturers, distributors, importers, or dealers of off-road equipment are added to the exclusions, those to whom the requirements would not apply.

Amendments also include extending the effective date of the bill from 120 days to one year after it shall have become a law.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Jon_Lowtek on Saturday December 31, 2022 @01:26PM (#34199174)
the "bad stuff" currently discussed is about manufacturers only making assemblies available, not components. I diffed S4104 and S4104A and don't see that in the changes.

The governors memo also talks about eliminating the requirement related to overriding security features, which is section 2.B of the bill, again the change the governor mentions is not in the amendment made earlier this year.

The governors memo also talks about business to business and business to government sales. There is a new point 3.E related to emergency communication equipment, but it would be a stretch to match those. Again the change the governor mentions is not there.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Animats on Saturday December 31, 2022 @02:37PM (#34199895)
Right. We need to wait until the NY site updates and shows the final version of the bill as "signed by governor". Probably Tuesday.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Animats on Friday January 06, 2023 @12:53PM (#34278270)
The bill status has been updated to "Signed by Governor".[1] The text hasn't changed since the version passed by the Assembly.

[1] https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2021/s4104/amendm...

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by philistine on Saturday December 31, 2022 @01:25AM (#34194185)
You can also blame the system. The fact any sort of executive official can rewrite what the legislative wrote is insane. To hell with your limericks about checks and balances. Once a bill's done, no one ought to be able to stop anything.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by dietr1ch on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:43AM (#34195265)
It's working as intended
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by hackernewds on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:29AM (#34195861)
Why so?
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by noisy_boy on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:56AM (#34196045)
They probably mean "as intended by lobbyists".
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by mxkopy on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:37PM (#34201034)
No, the system was always intended to have entry points for highly interested groups to make a play, at all levels. Remember that many of the balances in place are levied against (what the founders saw as stupid) people represented by popular vote (e.g. the electoral college).
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by kevin_thibedeau on Saturday December 31, 2022 @02:55AM (#34194530)
Really wish Zeldin wasn't an election denier. That's what made me vote for governor sellout.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by themitigating on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:18AM (#34195417)
We often have to vote for the lesser of two evils.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by denton-scratch on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:40AM (#34195555)
Not really; I refuse to vote for evil politicians (it keeps my karma nice and shiny). Unless voting is mandatory, you can simply not vote for anyone. My practice is to vote for someone that won't win, like the Greens, but for whom my vote might save them their deposit.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by 0dayz on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:56AM (#34195673)
Sure, but then you can't either act surprised when the more evil politicians are elected and blame people for either not voting or voting for better politicians.

You get what you vote or don't vote for

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Retric on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:20AM (#34195814)
That’s only looking at a single election. Being willing to vote for scum means your party is happy to send scum to the next general election, at which point you get to vote for even more scum.

Have some standards in the general election and people start looking at scum thinking their not electable.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by 0dayz on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:31AM (#34195874)
If you want better politicians, there are two things you can do:

Vote in primaries, there are different rules about this but if it means you have to join and participate in party activity to vote for a candidate then so be it.

hold them accountable together as ironic as it is: as a lobbying group, or even more grandiose work together with as many citizens of the state (even across the party line, no craziness though), to hold the governor/politician accountable.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nulbyte on Saturday December 31, 2022 @08:07AM (#34196108)
Some states have open primaries, eliminating the need to join a party. I wish my state was one of them, because I hate the political parties.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Pulcinella on Saturday December 31, 2022 @11:16AM (#34197767)
Yep don’t forget the second option. Direct action is always possible. I subscribe to a “block of marble” theory of politics: you can always METAPHORICALLY beat those in power into shape.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by denton-scratch on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:20PM (#34198476)
> but if it means you have to join and participate in party activity

Yeah. But my shiny karma doesn't want me to join a party whose policies I disagree with, just so I can influence their choice of candidates. That seems hypocritical, and I regard hypocrisy as the cardinal political "sin".

I've never agreed with the policies of any parties, so I have never joined a political party. The closest I got was that I joined CND, about 40 years ago. I quit about 39 years ago.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by fexecve on Sunday January 01, 2023 @03:59AM (#34204813)
If you were already going to get what you didn't vote for, what's the difference?
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by 62346136 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @07:35AM (#34195892)
Refusing to vote doesn't change the outcome if the only choices are bad ones. If anything it means you effectively voted for whoever had the majority in the end and are still guilty of supporting the greater evil if they turn out to be such.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by trinsic2 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:03PM (#34198326)
>If anything it means you effectively voted for whoever had the majority in the end and are still guilty of supporting the greater evil if they turn out to be such.

Thats red herring. Our electoral system is completely corrupt. The only way your vote would actuallycount is if all of the politicians we're replaced at once. Then maybe there would be an even playing field where it would matter.

Your statement of "you effectively voted for whoever had the majority" is like living in a state controlled by a two party system of gangsters and telling us that we just voted for the greater evil. Our two party system is corrupt, both parties are corrupt, don't lie to yourself.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by esarbe on Saturday December 31, 2022 @03:13PM (#34200272)
I think you make it too easy for yourself to drop responsibility. "Both parties are corrupt, everything is corrupt, the system is corrupt" is just a cope out.

There are efforts to introduce alternative voting systems that make 3rd party systems viable. There are efforts to get ~~corruption~~ lobbying out of the system, ...

If you really think that the system is "totally corrupt"; do something to fix it.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by trinsic2 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:30PM (#34200982)
Im not AT ALL responsible for a system that is not controlled by the people.

Yes my "do something" is focusing on supporting grassroots people and efforts that we have direct control over.

I have no interest in supporting systems that are not backed up by common individuals.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by esarbe on Monday January 02, 2023 @06:30AM (#34216800)
> Im not AT ALL responsible for a system that is not controlled by the people.

In the US system all power - nominally - derives from the people. And it still is controlled by the people, as the balance-of-power upset in 2016 - when Trump was elected GOP candidate despite the GOP leadership disfavoring him - showed. But yes; most of the time the two party system is doing a laudable job keeping the the people disunited over petty squabbles, while the moneyed class is poking the fire. And you feeling that "the system [..] is not controlled by the people" is just part of the strategy; you are still an actor in the system and as such you bear responsibility.

> You are supporting corruption by playing its game.

I'm not permitted to participate in US American politics. I'm just an observer. The system I'm living in is a semi-direct democracy with federal, regional and local levels, on each of which I do participate. It's pretty much "by the people, for the people". Still; not without flaws.

> Yes my "do something" is focusing on supporting grassroots people and efforts that we have direct control over.

That's a laudable effort, I congratulate you. Are you aware of other grassroot movements that try to break up the two-party system and to get money out of politics?

What are "common individuals"?

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by tpmoney on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:40PM (#34201501)
>If anything it means you effectively voted for whoever had the majority in the end and are still guilty of supporting the greater evil if they turn out to be such.

No. This is a nice lie that conveniently encourages one to vote for the major parties but no. If someone comes up to you and offers you a choice of being shot in the arm or shot in the leg and you say "I don't want to be shot at all" you have no moral responsibility for being shot or where you were shot.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by fexecve on Sunday January 01, 2023 @04:03AM (#34204828)
More importantly, not voting sends a message. A very important message. When no one votes (as is the case in Russia), it makes it clear to everyone that everyone else thinks that the system is corrupt. The government can still say "99% of people voted! WOohoo! Democracy!" but everyone knows that it's fake, because nobody they know voted. That's why some of the most corrupt countries on earth have mandatory voting.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by themitigating on Saturday December 31, 2022 @08:59AM (#34196462)
Not voting is voting you taking away a vote from one side.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Pulcinella on Saturday December 31, 2022 @11:13AM (#34197723)
Doesn’t work like that. I’ve had my red team grandparents saying not voting was the same as voting for blue team, and my blue team grandparents saying not voting was the same as voting for red team. Both things can’t be true. And even if they were, then not voting would be the same as voting for every team, in which case the difference in votes between each candidate doesn’t change. Not voting is just not voting.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nyrulez on Saturday December 31, 2022 @01:09PM (#34198994)
Election denier vs right to repair denier. If you consider the former less evil, good luck to you.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by EricE on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:50PM (#34201992)
Election denier is such a stupid phrase - right now Democrats like to act like they have never disputed an election, which is a total crock. Hell Stacy Abrams had to be defeated twice before she finally conceded. And then you have people like some of those in this thread that not only buy into it, but feel morally superior at being duplicitous. Sigh.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nyrulez on Saturday December 31, 2022 @06:58PM (#34202056)
If you really can't see the difference between Trump's fraudulent "election was stolen" claims that led to a whole attack on capitol and that he still can't get over it to this day vs Stacy Abrams recount or whatever, there is nothing that can be be done to persuade your kind. It's like being too far gone to see any logic.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nemo44x on Saturday December 31, 2022 @08:44AM (#34196361)
That’s such a weird thing to not vote for someone for. I mean, I get it - it’s a principled stance and all. But you should never vote on principal. You should vote to win so that the real issues you care about are reified. Principal could make you feel good but you still lost. Winning is the only thing that matters.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by LadyCailin on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:27AM (#34196695)
If you vote for me, I’ll work to enact everything you want, but then I’ll also ensure I become dictator so that later I can repeal everything I don’t like, including most of the things I passed for you. Good news is, you won!
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by armada651 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:22AM (#34196648)
That kind of cynical thinking is exactly what broke US democracy. Winning at any cost even to the detriment of society as a whole.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nemo44x on Saturday December 31, 2022 @10:52AM (#34197495)
It’s from the book “Rules for Radicals” and has been a major part of progressive activists strategy for over 60 years. It works.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by armada651 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @11:28AM (#34197920)
I didn't say that it doesn't work. It has been a major part of the anti-abortion and pro-gun movements as well and it has been very effective there.

However your quality of life in society is much more important than any single issue. Knowingly voting for a candidate who is not competent just because you agree with them on a single issue will not solve any of the larger issues in society.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by trinsic2 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:08PM (#34198382)
Thank you for stating the obvious... Man.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nemo44x on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:33PM (#34198594)
It comes down to pragmatism, not ideology.

Consider you have to 2 groups, A and B, and a set of issues. Each issue has different importance to me and each group has a generally opposing stance on each issue.

One group may have a stance on a subset of issues I generally prefer but more importantly the other group could have a stance on issues that terrify me. Their stance would lead to negative outcomes much worse than negative outcomes from the other group. It could even be that I disagree with many of the stances of the group I vote for but I’m not terrified of the outcomes associated with those stances.

So it is therefore more important to win to stop the opposition group from producing undesirable outcomes.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Terretta on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:17PM (#34200855)
You're misunderstanding issues versus the mechanism of issue management. You're saying ability to manage issues is less important than any issue being managed, which makes no sense.

Unless, of course, you don't believe in democracy and an election process.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nemo44x on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:12PM (#34201291)
I believe in winning so the issues I care about most are either acted on or prevented from being acted on. Without winning it’s pointless. You need to win to take power so winning is the most important thing before anything else. Everything else has winning as a prerequisite.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by namuol on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:55AM (#34196947)
> Winning is the only thing that matters.

…assuming you trust the system to enact policies you care about. Punishing the act of disingenuously eroding trust in the system for political gain isn’t just a matter of principal but a clear long term strategy. Believe it or not there’s another election cycle after this one.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nemo44x on Saturday December 31, 2022 @10:54AM (#34197514)
Next election cycle? Who cares, it will be forgotten by the next news cycle. Keep winning to keep getting your desired outcomes.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by macNchz on Saturday December 31, 2022 @10:13AM (#34197103)
Many people consider not having election deniers in government to be a “real issue” in and of itself. Having people in office who sow discord and continue to promulgate a fantasy about election integrity actively takes focus away from more important things.

The winning at-all-costs attitude is what got us here in the first place: people so concerned with winning and having their people in office they don’t care if they actually won the election, and tell themselves increasingly nonsensical things to justify it.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by nemo44x on Saturday December 31, 2022 @11:09AM (#34197681)
It’s about outcomes. If that’s an outcome you care greatly about then that’s your decision to make. For me it ranks low on the set of outcomes I desire, especially when compared to the outcomes the opposition desires.

The book “Rules for Radicals” talks about this and it has been a tool of left wing activists for 60+ years. You see it today for instance with various activists groups that plea for “our democracy” on one hand while destroying things and disrupting society until they get their way outside the democratic process.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by trinsic2 on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:06PM (#34198357)
The outcome is not in your control. Its like going to a rigged casino and expected to win big. This ideology is really out of touch with reality.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by Terretta on Saturday December 31, 2022 @04:13PM (#34200802)
Having elections transition smoothly according to the vote is low on the set of outcomes you desire?

That seems like a meta issue, that if not supported, all other issues are moot. So I'd certainly vote against party on any given platform plank in order to maintain the meta process that applies to both present and all future parties regardless of platform planks.

Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by rendall on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:08AM (#34195119)
One comment on the video a) notes that the legislature approved the changes and b) would not have passed the bill otherwise in the first place, but get to blame the governor.
Re:Louis Rossmann discusses NY's butchering of right to repair by COGlory on Saturday December 31, 2022 @12:11PM (#34198410)
How can the legislature approve changes when they are not in session?

And WHY would they do that?