If a business is pushing for tips (those dumbass Toast POS consoles that now often start tipping at 20%), the workers are underpaid. Tipping is getting out of control, and businesses just need to pay more.

Tipping is a stupid concept. Japan has the number three economy in the world and they'll refuse tips.

Watch https://youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE and tell me that he's wrong.

I really dislike tipping. I can’t remember the last time that service was so amazing that a tip was required. Of course, I’m not sure I would be happier if the bill was the same with the tip component removed. I suppose it does give the consumer some leverage if the service was horrible. I think I’ve just convinced myself that tips are ok.

Those who are punished by not tipping are unlikely to be the exclusive cause for poor service.

Sure, but they may make some noise which could lead to better service next time (i.e. a feedback loop). Otherwise, only the consumer is punished and it is less likely that things will improve.

And then we’re right back to the crux of this article: pitting employees and customers against each other. So now our mechanism is to punish employees in hope that it forces improvement from the company?

There are people trying to introduce tipping in Japan. https://tip-culture.com/ I hope they fail.

You and me both, fellow.

Exploring a bit into how it might fail: AFAIK Japanese people shun tips because it is seen as an unwelcome incentive to do better, and they take pride in doing their best wherever. Tipping, thus, is akin to saying "This should motivate you to do better next time" - basically an insult. This is said in the site you linked to as well, it quotes a testimonial from an employee that didn't quit an oppressive job she had because a customer complimented her work. Not because of a silent tip and a nod.

An app that intends to 'remove friction in tipping' and 'motivate employees with tips', goes against Japanese cultural values very hard. The workers are (allegedly) not motivated by tips and tipping doesn't have a friction problem unless you're the owner/manager trying to get in on it. Additionally, this is something the workers have no input on, it is a terminal on a table whose sole purpose is to add tips to the service. No employer would ever allow its workers to do this just because, let alone pay a company for this service. There has to be a split of some sorts embedded into the game, which leads me to think this will motivate only prospective employers looking to get a cut on the tip income.

According to the site, the terminal only asks if you want to tip and the customer says yes or no, with a tick note appearing in the terminal if the customer says yes. This could help cover tip stealing. How would you ever know your tips were stolen if you didn't even know you were tipped in the first place?

So not only are they importing the tip system from the United States, but also the adversarial relationship between hosts and owner/managers that encourages tip stealing, and a form of tip stealing that the workers can't stop because it's in an app controlled by the owner/manager, not a jar tallied at the end of the day by the same workers that filled it.

Maybe I'm reading too deep into it, I tend to do that sometimes.

So if my law firm sent an invoice that had a tip line on it, that would indicate the lawyers are underpaid?

I am going to need a better definition of overpaid and underpaid, and the Reservoir Dogs quip about women only being able to be economically independent due to tips is also going to need a source.

>lawyers >civil engineers

How do you find it a reasonable argument to compare upper-end office workers to service industry employees? Are you saying lawyers and engineers are paying their mortgages with tips?

No, I was responding to the logic (which I think is erroneous) of:

> If a business is pushing for tips (those dumbass Toast POS consoles that now often start tipping at 20%), the workers are underpaid.

If the argument is “if workers are paying for their mortgage with tips, then they are underpaid”, then I would respond that analyzing each individual’s cost structure to determine how much you should pay them is, at the least, very inefficient.

I think the much more obvious point was that you generally only tip (and therefore would see a tip popup on the POS) at places where the tips really are an important part of their take home. I don't think that line of thinking is erroneous. Where I'm located in one of the provinces, until only recently places could pay subminimum wage to service staff under the assumption that it was covered by tips.

I dont know about Canada, but here in the US people often misrepresent these provisions. i.e "places could pay subminimum wage to service staff under the assumption that it was covered by tips" in the US a place can pay submimimum wages provided the over all gross pay IS MORE than the minimum. Not the "assuming it will be" it has to actually be counted, and be paid more than. If not the business has to make up the difference

This is one (in part) to incentive the business to ensure their workers are reporting their tipped income, it is not uncommon for people to try to evade taxation by not reporting tipped income

> the workers are underpaid

What's your definition of "underpaid"? What does anyone deserve to get paid?

It's really really difficult to create some sort of moral framework around the jobs people do and the rewards they get for doing them (does a plumber deserve to get paid more than a dental hygienist?). Capitalism is efficient because it doesn't try to. It just rewards people for supplying the things others want.

"Underpaid"/"overpaid" would have to be relative to what markets pay. But if all servers receive tips, that's just what the market is doing.

More simply, you wouldn't argue that janitors are correctly paid, just because they don't receive tips. They just don't have the surface to collect them.

If tipping can ever be mandatory on a bill, it’s a good sign the employees are getting screwed.

Any business can add a tip to any bill. There is no reason why the civil engineering firm I hired to do a survey could not give me a quote that says “mandatory x% gratuity on final invoice”.

Ah, but pushing that responsibility onto the customer is part of the scam!

workers who are paid well usually dont have tip jars.

> workers who are paid well usually dont have tip jars.

I'm sure that's why I don't see tip jars at grocery store checkouts, because the workers there are so well paid. Moreover, if you work at a job that society thinks is socially acceptable to ask for tips, why would you leave money on the table just because you're paid $25/hr?

Tipped services are tied to cultural expectations, not wages. You don't tip your gas station clerk (who's probably making minimum wage), but you normally tip your bartender at a nice bar.

So if I put out a tip jar, I am by definition not paid well?

I do not care if people think I am not paid well, if they want to tip me, I am more than happy to accept it.

False. So many comments in this thread seem like they’re written by people who have never worked jobs with tipping.

When I worked as a server, tips were far preferable to salary.

We’d get $10/hr plus tips, which could work out to $30/hr on average.

We had people who came from other server jobs paying $20/hr with no tips who felt they were getting screwed.

> We’d get $10/hr plus tips, which could work out to $30/hr on average.

in which city? I would never describe making $62k a year in NYC as being paid well.

Think large Mid-west city where you can rent a 1 bed for under $1k.

There is a reason why so many people work jobs that pay tips when apparently HN thinks a flat hourly rate is better.

In NYC I've heard it's not unusual to get $80-100k at a higher-end place under a tips model.

> Think large Mid-west city where you can rent a 1 bed for under $1k.

Which one.