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Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by noman-land on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:03AM (#34173282)
This could only have been naively said 12 years ago. To me, this is cowardice.

Edward Snowden summarized it well.

"Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by seti0Cha on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:36AM (#34173661)
I can understand calling it foolish, I can understand calling it naive, but why are you calling it cowardice? What fear is he giving in to? He doesn't seem to be avoiding engaging in things he would like to for fear he will be discovered. One might even consider him guilty of foolish bravery in not fearing that he will be condemned for what seems to him as non-controversial.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternalban on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:42AM (#34173721)
A primary purpose of propaganda is to undermine one's own independent judgment regarding transpersonal (society at large) issues. [A pyschological phenomena: the individual subconsciously associates the megaphone of 1-n broadcasting with 'social consensus'. It works.]

It takes social courage, and more importantly courage of one's own convictions, to face the tide of conditioned and packaged social truths. "Truths" that will be repeated from friends, family, coworkers, such as "if you have nothing to hide .."

It is so much easier to go with the flow and takes not even a tiny bit of courage to do so.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by seti0Cha on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:04AM (#34174002)
It sounds like you are saying the courageous path is privately defying the consensus. It seems to me that courage is only involved when you are willing to do so publicly. I'm not saying that one should, but I don't think the cowardice/courage dichotomy is an apt description of keeping controversial opinions private.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternalban on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:10AM (#34174073)
I said nothing about "privately". All our actions, private or public, are engendered by the content of our minds.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by seti0Cha on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:22AM (#34174218)
Ah, so you are saying the mere act of disagreement is an act of courage. I think maybe you mean this in the sense that we fear to be different, that it is our internal condemnation of self we are facing down...a Nietzschian will to power kind of thing?
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternalban on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:43AM (#34174506)
Disagreement would be the wrong word, since that is the pleasure that drives the contrarian. These acts of courage are not about pleasure, rather about fidelity, the expression of which may in fact entail social pain.

It is difficult (but important) to self examine one's motive to insure it is not pleasure that is motivating one's standing in contradiction to (asserted) social pressures. And after that determination, it takes courage to be true to one's self.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:13PM (#34178007)
> courage is only involved when you are willing to do so publicly

Just disagreeing with the mainstream view on a topic often requires courage, trusting your reasoning and evidence over external sources. Then it typically requires additional courage to be public in your disagreement, especially in areas where it's common for people to criticize others for diverging from the mainstream view.

Still, I've found it really valuable to disagree publicly and then engage with the criticism, because that reduces the risk that my disagreement was due to a mistake.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by feanaro on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:42AM (#34173725)
I suspect OP meant cowardice in not fighting for what is right and even giving up with tepid resignation before the fight has even begun. Perhaps cowardice is not the best word but the meaning felt immediately intelligible to me.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by seti0Cha on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:12AM (#34174091)
I think I more or less understand as well, but I have a pet peeve about people using the word "cowardice" for things they think are morally wrong. The classic example was how everyone was calling the 9/11 bombers cowardly, when clearly their actions required a certain amount of bravery. If memory serves, Bill Maher lost his show for pointing out that fact. I think people do this because they don't feel comfortable with a purely moral condemnation, so they reach for something that is also suggests weakness, a more universally despised trait.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by E14n on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:57AM (#34174674)
The cowardice is in surrendering your moral agency

"So if there was anything I was considering doing where if it became public I would be hurt, I wouldn't do it."

There is a great book Bonhoeffer[1] by Eric Mataxas which deals with this and a lot of other issues

1. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35493109-bonhoeffer

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by seti0Cha on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:35PM (#34175266)
The next sentence is:

> This corresponded almost exactly with things I shouldn't have been doing anyway, so it wasn't too hard.

The writer appears to be saying that there is no conflict between what he thinks is right and what the general public thinks is right. This is why I suggested naive or foolish might be better terms. I love Bonhoeffer, though!

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:08PM (#34175752)
You're right that that's what the piece says. It's not what I would write now: there definitely are things that I think are right and most people don't. Instead of doing those things secretly, however, I do them and make a public case for them.

Examples, explaining why I:

* Often let my kids do things alone at ages when other people wouldn't: https://www.jefftk.com/p/whats-the-alternative-to-independen...

* Disregard the warning on baby formula that says not to use the microwave: https://www.jefftk.com/p/stop-discouraging-microwave-formula...

* Work(ed) on ads: https://www.jefftk.com/p/why-i-work-on-ads

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by seti0Cha on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:32PM (#34176833)
Interesting, but those aren't very high stakes controversial opinions. People may strongly disagree with them, but they aren't likely to lead to a declined job offer, workplace difficulties or harassment. There are many stances for which making a public case is futile because people have strong emotional commitments around them. Would you still be public about them?
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:02PM (#34177877)
Yes, I would still be public. I think making a case is almost never futile: I don't think I've ever encountered a topic where there weren't some people (often the quieter ones) who cared about the arguments.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by E14n on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:57PM (#34181620)
It is hard to read this any other way then - you are in a privileged position of having never been personally challenged by a lack of privacy so are fine with privacy not existing. By that reasoning you are also OK with those who are effected being silenced, because they are, for example, not cisgender, white skinned and male and could face attack for random individuals for expressing their views in public.

The challenging thing about reading books like Bonhoffer is that it compels you to questioning what your response would have been if placed in the same situation.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Friday December 30, 2022 @07:31AM (#34184420)
> you are fine with privacy not existing

I don't think we'll be able to prevent the disappearance of privacy as technology continues to get cheaper and more widespread. I'm not saying "this is good", I'm saying "this is coming, adapt".

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by feanaro on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:04AM (#34195098)
We won't be able to prevent it only if we accept it. The erosion of privacy is self-imposed, so if it brings damage and people consider it important, it will stop.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Saturday December 31, 2022 @09:49AM (#34196886)
Our world is non-ideal in many ways, and there are many potential sacrifices one could make to help improve our future. Using more private technology is one of them, but so are things like avoiding flying, going vegan, switching careers to directly work on a problem, or donating to support progress in these or other areas. I think it's pretty hard to make a case that trying to hold back the large decrease in privacy is more altruistically valuable than, say, trying to keep humanity from wiping itself out (nukes, bioengineering, AI, etc).
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by tharne on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:35PM (#34176863)
> I can understand calling it foolish, I can understand calling it naive, but why are you calling it cowardice?

Because this is often a standard emotional response to very large problems. It's one of the reasons so many people (mainly conservatives) downplayed the risks of COVID. It can be mentally easier to downplay or ignore a scary problem rather than acknowledge it.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @04:07PM (#34177940)
But it can also be easy to take tiny steps that don't appreciably improve your position, and then tell yourself you've made things better. In the case of covid, this was all of the surface cleaning; with privacy it's often people picking a few of the standard recommendations but leaving such large remaining gaps that their overall situation is minimally changed.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by waboremo on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:10AM (#34173357)
Jeff Kaufman has also repeated this, as of very recently. [1] Stating, he would like to see more people take this approach to their privacy.

What's interesting is he generally is aware of groups of people that should not do so, like those who are abused, but does not consider the possibility that everyone can become a target (through regime change for instance).

I suppose the most frustrating part is his example of employers turning down people for sharing too much on social media, which should be normalized, but someone not sharing on social media should be penalized for hiding. It's a tad concerning, especially as we're coming to terms with the real damaging effects of social media mentally.

[1]: https://www.jefftk.com/p/privacy-tradeoffs

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by tharne on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:33PM (#34176842)
> What's interesting is he generally is aware of groups of people that should not do so, like those who are abused, but does not consider the possibility that everyone can become a target (through regime change for instance).

This is exactly right. You can hold a view that is perfectly acceptable within mainstream society right now, and find that 10 years from now that view is considered extreme or dangerous. If you have a public and searching history of espousing that view, you could suffer very really consequences as a result, even if you know longer hold that particular view.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:58PM (#34177835)
> You can hold a view that is perfectly acceptable within mainstream society right now, and find that 10 years from now that view is considered extreme or dangerous. If you have a public and searchable history espousing that view, you could suffer very really consequences as a result, even if you no longer hold that particular view.

I think you would have a pretty hard time finding examples of this in somewhere like the US:

* Few things go from 'mainstream' to 'extreme' anywhere near that quickly.

* If something does make that transition, there would be hundreds of millions of people who previously held the view and millions of people who previously endorsed it publicly.

* People care about your current views, especially on topics where lots of people have changed their minds. In cases where I wrote about something and then later retracted it, I've never had anyone treat that as if I still hold my previous view.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jacquesm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @09:06PM (#34180890)
> I think you would have a pretty hard time finding examples of this in somewhere like the US

On the contrary, you can have a live example in the US today, and you could have found another one six years ago.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Friday December 30, 2022 @07:27AM (#34184399)
Sorry, it's not obvious to me what two views you're talking about.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:18AM (#34173466)
The right to privacy is different from privacy itself.

I believe there should be due process and warrants before they can use data against you, and that people have a right to know how secure something is or isn't.

That doesn't mean I personally need to keep Google from knowing when I go to the store.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by yikesonbikes on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:23AM (#34173528)
I turned on location services on Twitter just so Elon knew where I was at all times. I'm working on a bot that will upload all of my search queries and every bedroom conversation from my Alexa, then share it with him directly (since Twitter STILL lacks this feature)

Not that he cares, of course, but if it helps his bottom line, I figured "why not?"

He and Google (who are Good) will notice me any day now!

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by yikesonbikes on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:38AM (#34173686)
elon plz hurry and notice me, they're downvoting this idea now

(posted from iPhone 6.9.3+d4e2a0b3ef at 37.986776, -76.187412 while drinking a refreshing Coke Zero and having my morning cigarette like you know i do everyday)

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:57AM (#34173913)
You fool! You've revealed your secret base in Chesapeake Bay! I'm sending my cigarette extinguishing no fun drones, which now include a prerecorded lecture on the health effects of Coke, as per regulations, before they explode and kill you.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by yikesonbikes on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:17AM (#34174151)
oh no can't believe you found me already (and definitely not the secret base of a youtuber who called my favorite video game dumb)

i sure hope you didn't call my employer at (312) 395-3146 and tell them that I (Kenny) have been a very bad boy

plz hurry & bring SWAT or i'll purge this bottle of every last phenylalanine i'll do it i swear

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:33AM (#34174368)
Never mind, I got reassign for special energetics and processing duty and I'm no longer running SWAT.

I don't know what that means because we aren't allowed to ask but I'm sure it's not being used as a living CPU and battery.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by catiopatio on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:14AM (#34174127)
Due process is mostly useful after the fact, when you have the opportunity, at great personal expense, to convince the DA, judge, and/or jury that the criminal justice apparatus screwed up in charging you.

Warrants are easily acquired, and you will be charged based on a far lower standard of evidence than the state must meet to convict you.

While you can then avail yourself of due process, the deck is stacked against you — the cost to adequately defend yourself is astronomical.

You’re likely to take a plea deal to avoid the expense and risk of a trial; an enormous number of innocent people take plea deals or are wrongfully convicted every single day.

Better to keep the fox out of the hen house in the first place.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:45AM (#34174544)
Ideally, yes, it would definitely be best to not be exposed to the risk of prosecution for some data glitch.

But you also have to look at the risk of getting fired because you missed an email if your self-hosted solution goes down, losing your wallet because you didn't have Tile tracking, extra risk of getting sick because you didn't get enough sleep while dealing with some last minute tech issue to make your more-private system work, getting lost because the open source app had worse data or compass calibration algorithms than Maps, getting money stolen because you used crypto that can't be reversed, etc.

The current suite of nonprivate tech offers an insane amount of power, especially for those of us without a good memory or navigational skills.

I guess it's the same issue with unions and protests, people who are one paycheck away from the streets won't risk a strike, because they'll lose everything by the time they get the benefits.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by 29083011397778 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:46PM (#34176996)
> The current suite of nonprivate tech offers an insane amount of power, especially for those of us without a good memory or navigational skills.

Do you think relying on these tools has made your memory better (allowing you to wean yourself off them), or worse (creating a customer for life)? I firmly believe it creates a sort of learned helplessness in people, in the same way the commercial internet in general is bad for ones memory or attention span.

Given how many people seem to believe Google Maps has gotten much more in-your-face (instead of doing its job and getting out of the way) over the last few years, but so few are willing to abandon it, I suspect I'm right: using the tools you find (and are!) so helpful creates a dependence on them.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by catiopatio on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:40AM (#34174471)
Putting the government question aside, what prevents Google and advertisers from using your own data to your disadvantage?

For example: personalizing pricing based on how much you’re likely to be willing to pay.

I’m flying to a tropical destination in a couple weeks, I live in a cold climate, and I just ordered a bunch of new warm weather clothes and some swim suits for my trip.

Any corporation with access to my email would know about my trip, my home address, any previous online clothing purchases, and how much I paid for given articles of clothing.

Using that, they can make a decent estimate of how elastic my demand is for the new clothes, and how much I’m willing to pay — especially if they leverage detailed financial information that’s readily available from data brokers.

How much would retailers by willing to pay for that kind of pricing insight?

How much would you overpay for goods and services thanks to that massive information asymmetry, in exchange for free e-mail hosting?

That’s not a far-fetched future; giving corporations, data brokers, and the government access to the most intricate inner-most details of your life hastens its arrival, and is dangerously and willfully naive.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @12:11PM (#34174874)
Nothing really. The main thing is that it would be very very hard for them to make more of a disadvantage to me than a low tech life would naturally cause.

I'll always be a fan of open source tech, and I 100% support right to privacy in private spaces. But we can't join every single protest in the world.

Five minutes delay fussing with buggy apps could mean missing a bus. Not having Google Services would probably mean I couldn't use important work apps. Not having location history could mean not being able to find something you dropped.

And not using Amazon prime would almost make some areas into prisons if you can't drive.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by tharne on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:25AM (#34173547)
> This could only have been naively said 12 years ago. To me, this is cowardice.

Exactly. This is 100% cowardice. It's the mentally of a broken man who's too beaten to fight anymore. Very depressing.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by brookst on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:38AM (#34173679)
I don’t know if it’s a trend I’ve just noticed over the past 20 years, or a fundamental part of human psychology I was oblivious to when young, but I am really disturbed by those who think everyone is secretly just like them, and anyone who fails to act identically is “broken” or “mentally ill” or only “pretending” to be different.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by tharne on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:26PM (#34176759)
That's fair. Perhaps I should have chosen my words more carefully. What I was trying to say is that I've noticed that when dealing with very large and complex problems like privacy, climate change, terrorism, etc., people who claim, "I don't care about X, or I don't worry about Y anymore...", are often motivated first and foremost by fear. The problems get to feel so overwhelming that it becomes easier to either pretend the problem doesn't exist or convince yourself that you don't care.

To your broader point, you are correct. We do, and I'm guilty of it here, tend to use the specter of mental illness to silence or discredit people we disagree with.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @01:37PM (#34176121)
I fight on many things, but a huge part of fighting effectively is choosing your battles: putting your effort where it is likely to have results.

Some things I've done that I think have a much better cost benefit trade off than fighting for increased privacy:

* Switching careers to work on pandemic mitigation: https://www.jefftk.com/p/leaving-google-joining-the-nucleic-...

* Donating half my income for the last 10 years: https://www.jefftk.com/donations

* Advocating for cheaper housing: https://www.jefftk.com/news/housing

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by masterof0 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:14AM (#34173411)
Another pattern I hear people use to justify their laziness is "Why should I hide every detail of my life from Google when the government already knows everything? They must also make money, right? so that they can continue to provide their services for free." I don't mind if someone wants to give up their privacy; what I find ridiculous is people arguing for others to do the same.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:26AM (#34173555)
If someone does something themselves and believe it benefits them, they often want to share that benefit with others.

My time and safety are more valuable to me than my privacy, and I think everyone should consider their priorities.

If you want to use Tor and degoogle, I have no problem with that, I'm glad someone is studying that stuff in case it ever becomes truly necessary for people.

But not every person can join every protest. In terms of good done for the world compared to inconvenience to myself, I'm not convinced staying private is the most effective thing.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by feanaro on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:54AM (#34173871)
It's very clear to some of us this stuff is already truly necessary, and the trajectory of how the situation is evolving is not looking very nice at all.

So enjoy the locally optimal time and safety you're able to get out of it, but please consider the global downsides of pushing the public perception in the wrong direction.

Come to think, the situation is rather similar to enjoying the conveniences of modern, energetically wasteful life without considering the climate problems this will cause for future you or future generations.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Thursday December 29, 2022 @11:30AM (#34174325)
Only specific aspects of modern life are energetically wasteful, depending on what era you compare to.

Many modern conveniences reduce resources use, because they replace real things with ones and zeros, and for better or worse many industries are getting forgotten.

I'm still hopeful the future will be a place where privacy is readily available but not strictly needed, but I can see why people would think otherwise.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by feanaro on Friday December 30, 2022 @04:08AM (#34183319)
> Only specific aspects of modern life are energetically wasteful, depending on what era you compare to.

> Many modern conveniences reduce resources use, because they replace real things with ones and zeros, and for better or worse many industries are getting forgotten.

I agree, I didn't mean to relate it to all aspects of modern life, just the energetically wasteful ones.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by eternityforest on Friday December 30, 2022 @01:02PM (#34187748)
There definitely are energetically wasteful ones.

Although aside from the baseline things like refrigeration and plumbing, a lot of them aren't real conveniences, they're just traditions that evolved as displays of wealth. I wouldn't call nonnative lawns or large houses(Aside from maybe people with kids) or not being able to repeat an outfit within the same week or two convenient.

Some of them might be hedonistic in some way, but a lot of things that make pollution are pretty high effort.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by feanaro on Saturday December 31, 2022 @05:02AM (#34195088)
The two large ones I'm thinking of is excessive meat consumption and excessive air travel.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by masterof0 on Thursday December 29, 2022 @05:08PM (#34178693)
Privacy is not a "protest", is a right. You are safer if your privacy, is preserved, not the other way around. The "freedom isn't free" argument for surveillance doesn't really fly.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by brookst on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:33AM (#34173632)
Do you think it is possible that people have different priorities and beliefs than you do?

Or does everyone share your priorities and beliefs, but those of us who act differently are just lazy, and so we construct justifications to defend our different actions?

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jacquesm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:15AM (#34173430)
And worse still: giving up the privacy of other people. Every time some idiot family member uploads a bunch of photos and tags them they're doing just that.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by cronix on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:23AM (#34173524)
Sure, you can have access to my phone's contact list with all of my friends and family members numbers and names, some with addresses and birthdays, etc., to check if they are also on the service I just signed up for! How convenient!
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jacquesm on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:27AM (#34173578)
And to spam them if they're not.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by rubyfan on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:28AM (#34173580)
It’s really impossible to allow surveillance capitalism for only some to knowingly opt in. The way Google, Facebook and others are built to vacuum up everything they can get puts those of us who care about our privacy in a losing situation.

For example when your therapist emails you from their Gmail account to set appointments, now Google knows you see a therapist. I never signed up to give that information to Google. Pay your bill your credit card, now Mastercard knows you see a therapist.

There needs to be some reasonable expectation of privacy written into law and a reasonable limit to how data can be captured and used.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by Existenceblinks on Thursday December 29, 2022 @10:48AM (#34173798)
It's either people love free stuff or it's poverty. The business model of selling your data is exactly a supply to demands of poor and free-aholic people.
Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:00PM (#34176410)
Looking at a problem and saying "for the effort I could put in here, the benefit would not be worth it" is prudence, not cowardice.

There are huge numbers of things that are wrong in the world: should I call someone a coward for not working on malaria prevention or pandemic mitigation? For living well while others suffer?

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by noman-land on Thursday December 29, 2022 @02:29PM (#34176795)
No, I don't think this analogy is apt. It would be like someone thinking that preventing themselves from getting malaria isn't worth the effort so they go out and get infected on purpose. Maybe that's not cowardice but it's still incredibly stupid.

To reference the Snowden quote again, it would be like giving up your freedom of speech because it's too annoying to defend. That is cowardice.

Re:Giving Up on Privacy (2011) by jefftk on Thursday December 29, 2022 @03:51PM (#34177749)
Extending your analogy, I think it's more like if someone decides it's not worth sleeping under a bednet. Or my deciding not to wear an N95 at the supermarket. I might agree or disagree with them on whether the risk they're taking is a smart choice, but "cowardly" is a bizarre angle to criticize it from.

My argument is not that I have nothing to hide. Instead, it's that hiding has enough chance of not working that none of us should rely on it.