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Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by shmatt on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:29AM (#34150090)
im kind of doubting that thread, not necessarily fraud but not every employee has the full picture

* this memo[1] from the SWA VP thats circulating dated December 21st calling a staffing emergency saying all hell is about to break loose. I'm pretty sure that guy didn't know of the software crash before it happened

* Every single piece of checked in luggage is going to take 30+ days to be found? Weird none of the extensive press has mentioned people not getting their bag. Also its pretty much an airport thing and not an airline thing. Airports are in charge of deplaning your luggage and bringing it to you

* They're running 40% of flights completely manually with 0 scheduling software? That's extremely impressive

[1] https://mobile.twitter.com/ruthschmidt/status/16074609858619...

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by phpisthebest on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:41AM (#34150271)
There have been plently of reporting about the bag issue, including a Chicago local reporter posting a video of 100's or maybe even 1000's of bags in chicago most of southwest tags on them

It appears there was a MASSIVE disconnect between baggage and people, bags are ending up all over the place even though the people never left.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by tiahura on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:10PM (#34150769)
Sounds the the perfect setup for an AirTag commercial.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by ghaff on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:19PM (#34150922)
The rare times I check a bag I throw an AirTag in.

Although the airline app has always been accurate it's cheap insurance if a bag isn't properly scanned or something.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by airtag on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:31PM (#34151111)
I've been flying with an airtag in my luggage in Europe since summer this year.

It's been great. My luggage missed a connection in december, when I arrived at the destination I could instantly see that it still was at the other airport. So while the others were waiting for the bags, I could already file a complaint (at the nearly empty complaints queue). Then three hours later I could see bag movement to the tarmac and knew that my bag cought the next flight.

Also, when in a city, it's a lot of fun to say: bring me back to my bag instead of looking up the hotel address.

For anyone with an iphone & checked bags I can really recommend it.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by Dragonai on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:01PM (#34151522)
You bagging the username "airtag" just to share this comment is so funny.

I think this is a great idea though and I didn't even think about "bring me back to my bag" - that's awesome :)

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by bombcar on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:15PM (#34150847)
iPhone alert: there are ten thousand airtags near you
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by giantrobot on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:39PM (#34151235)
Well that at least narrows it down to near you. /s
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by joezydeco on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @12:53AM (#34157919)
I'm kind of curious about that. If AirTags rely on nearby iPhones to capture tag IDs as they pass by and relay them to Apple, will a ramp worker with an iPhone in his pocket start seeing shorter battery life?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by bombcar on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @09:00AM (#34160991)
I suspect yes but almost imperceptibly.

It’s got to be less power than the phone uses to stay in contact with the towers.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by kayodelycaon on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @09:29PM (#34156845)
I’ve been using AirTags for this since they came out. It’s nice to see my bag made it with the plane. :)
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by kart23 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:46AM (#34150357)
https://old.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/zw5lsl/southwest_pi...

i believe this story. the scheduling system is too fragile and can’t automatically pick up disruptions to crew movement. they’re still manually scheduling some crews, but I think their main problem is they don’t have a way of knowing which crews are where and therefore can’t schedule flights. and it’s not every single piece that’s going to take 30 days, but it seems pretty likely that some bags will be lost that long.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by raverbashing on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:32PM (#34151122)
> the software for scheduling is woefully antiquated by at least 20 years. No app/internet options, all manual entry and it has settings that you DO NOT CHANGE for fear of crashing it.

But hey it's cheaper if we don't change it right? /s

(and I kinda can agree with this, like 10% because they might end contracting with some bigger IT company that doesn't care about shipping something that works)

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by 0cf8612b2e1e on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:47PM (#34151329)
Replacing an airline scheduling system sounds insanely complex. So many moving pieces, tens of millions of physical entities to track per day: crew, passengers, planes, spare parts, luggage, crew maximum allowed shift schedules, open gates, interacting with domestic+international terminals, seat assignments, and so on. Edge cases on edge cases on edge cases developed over years, probably in some god awful language running on a mainframe somewhere before “best practices” were a thing.

Modernizing such a system would take enormous political + real capital. The new system would undoubtedly have many growing pains as formerly resolved problems were not covered in the new system. It’s no surprise nobody would want to touch such a system.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by jchanimal on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:14PM (#34153903)
One of the more tangible outcomes from my work on mobile sync is the United scheduling software. Seems like Southwest was too little too late on IT upgrades. https://www.couchbase.com/customers/united-airlines/
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by apelapan on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:59PM (#34154434)
How is Couchbase in general and the mobile sync in particular relevant to United not having this disaster right now?

I've worked with airline scheduling software at almost the scale of United (about half the size, for the largest customer). That was using an Oracle database, which was a bit of a pain and a big expense, but worked fine as long as there was competent admins and competent devs. Would Couchbase be disaster-proof even when run by clowns?

Not saying there aren't better and worse choices for databases in any given situation. Just saying that there are lots of them that work perfectly well in competent hands.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by jchanimal on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @05:44PM (#34154863)
Architecture advantages over the phone based system described upthread are obvious. The reason United chose Couchbase is because it’s designed for offline updates. So if a plane, phone, or airport is disconnected they can still do the data entry work and reconcile asynchronously.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by apelapan on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @06:21PM (#34167379)
But the Southwest system is not "phone-based" by design, I presume? They are going via phone because the decision support system for ops/crew control are down/unusable?

If they've resorted to doing all their scheduling manually with pen and paper, any data pushed to the edge (air crews, ground staff etc) will need to be transmitted in a similarly manual fashion.

The gate/ground/air crews are not making autonomous decisions about who is flying what, when and where. That is decided by some ops/crew control structure in the airline.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by treis on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:42PM (#34151273)
It's not just that. There's complex rules around how frequently crews can work flights and how much time off they need. Delays can cause ripple effects as an hour delay can make an expected available crew unavailable. Then you have a mismatch of available crews and planes and scheduled flights. It's one big thorny ball of spaghetti that even the best designed computer system will struggle to unwravel.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by eightysixfour on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:30PM (#34154121)
And to top it off, airline unions fight tooth and nail to make sure this type of information cannot be tracked, which keeps a lot of systems manual. I understand why the unions don't want the data to be captured, but it also makes it hard to optimize physical systems.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by CydeWeys on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:41PM (#34156489)
Do you have a source? Why would unions fight to keep data from being logged that would ensure that their members aren't overworked? If you're not logging all the working hours how can you even be sure everyone is being paid correctly?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by eightysixfour on Wednesday December 28, 2022 @10:19AM (#34161795)
Sorry, wasn’t entirely clear on what data I was talking about.

Unions fight to keep a lot of data from being automated instead of manual because the automated data can be used to build individual performance metrics. For example, some baggage handling unions fought against bag scanners because then you could tell how much work different union members did.

They’re trying to keep from getting optimized to death like an Amazon warehouse worker.

Unfortunately that same automated data is really useful for dealing with situations like this. Once the manually entered data is out of sync with the real world the errors compound and you have cascading failures.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by cududa on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:47AM (#34150385)
Well I mean the article we’re commenting on mentioned the baggage issue and has pictures of it
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by sokoloff on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @11:52AM (#34150457)
> [it’s] pretty much an airport thing and not an airline thing. Airports are in charge of deplaning your luggage and bringing it to you

That depends on the airline and airport. It’s extremely common for the airline which operates out of a large part of a terminal to do their own ramp work.

Southwest employs thousands of ramp agents to do their own ground ops and under-wing work at their bases.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by burkaman on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:05PM (#34150687)
> I'm pretty sure that guy didn't know of the software crash before it happened

Why not? Some things aren't hard to predict, it's like a Ticketmaster employee saying "our site is probably going to go down when the Taylor Swift tour goes live". If you know your systems are deficient then you can predict they'll fail in a crisis, especially if that failure has happened before (as it has for Southwest).

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by avalys on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:10PM (#34150762)
It's not really a software "crash", it's more like, they know their process can't handle more than a certain amount of disruption before falling apart. And so if you can see that due to weather, etc. a lot of disruption is likely to happen, you can predict there's going to be a problem, and also predict that you simply don't have the staffing and systems in place to do anything about it.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by pcurve on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:36PM (#34151179)
Wow... that memo... is filled with such contempt. It's shocking. I wouldn't want to work there.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by cratermoon on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:52PM (#34151398)
That's a "beatings will continue until morale improves" message.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by paganel on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:26PM (#34151866)
That's also an excellent ad for why unions are needed.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by tpmoney on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:17PM (#34153946)
Aren't most airline employees in a union?
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by cratermoon on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @06:44PM (#34155504)
Air traffic controllers had a union until 1981, when Reagan's aw-shucks niceness led him to abruptly and unilaterally disband PATCO and fire all the striking controllers. PATCO had endorsed Reagan in the 1980 presidential election.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by burkaman on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @01:43PM (#34152090)
Yeah, and just to add some context for people who might not be familiar with US healthcare, what the VP is asking for is effectively impossible, so this is an order to work sick. The majority of Americans cannot just "go to the doctor" whenever they feel like it, especially 4 days before Christmas. The best most people could do in this situation is call a doctor's office and be told they can get an appointment in a couple months, or go to the emergency room if it's an emergency. So the choice here if you're sick is to waste emergency healthcare workers' time and probably pay extra for unnecessary emergency care, go to work sick, or get fired.

This is obviously intentional, and in many parts of the US totally legal. I don't know specific Colorado laws but there is no federal law against this.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by phil21 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @06:21PM (#34155255)
Urgent care facilities typically have less than a 2 hour wait time in every place in the US I've been, and cost about $0-60 per visit depending on insurance.

Scheduling is not an issue, and there is no need to waste an ED's time on such things. Some urgent care spots specifically have a "doctors note" service.

It doesn't make the policy any better (I've worked such jobs), but I don't think there is a need to exaggerate how the process works in real life.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by CydeWeys on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @08:44PM (#34156510)
When I'm sick, but not dying, the last thing I want to do is haul myself out to an urgent care unnecessarily to spend money and time, and be in the presence of other sick people. This is detrimental to getting better as soon as possible. Thankfully my employer trusts me, and I don't have to go running to an urgent care every time I get a cold (which they can do nothing about anyway).
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by hodgesrm on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:22PM (#34152617)
On the flip side Southwest has stranded what look like tens of thousands of passengers. The memo seems to be focused on curing that problem. It's not clear what the alternative(s) would look like short of ditching all their passengers.

It looks like this is not a fun week for anyone who works at Southwest.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by burkaman on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @04:09PM (#34153846)
That memo was sent before the storm and before anyone was stranded. It was an attempt to prevent a future crisis. If your goal is to prevent a future crisis, alternatives to ramping up employee abuse 3 days before a big storm might be:

1. Hiring more people (more than 3 days in advance).

2. Paying people more so they don't quit.

3. Giving people paid sick time and not threatening their jobs when they take it so that they don't come to work sick and get a bunch of their colleagues sick.

4. Selling fewer tickets and running fewer flights if you don't have enough capacity to support the current workload.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by DoingSomeThings on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @06:13PM (#34155184)
A few years back (peak-Covid) I was working for a company helping with temp staffing. It was shocking to me to see the operational expectations for low-wage labor. Clients would pay absolute minimum wage or maybe a dollar/hr more for all sorts of roles then be dumbfounded that workers were flaky.

An airport subcontractor came to us having issues with getting enough baggage workers. Issue was they paid minimum wage, were located 30 minutes outside the city, and there was no public transport. There was no way for the workers to get to the job! The narrative was "these worker are so untrustworthy/lazy/full of excuses." So they would pay a 50% to an agency hoping gig-contractors could save them on single-day contracts rather than just putting that money to better wages or transit perks.

Contempt really does describe the management attitudes I ran into.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by bsg75 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @10:57PM (#34157374)
> "Telemedicine or Telehealth doctor notes will not be accepted"

It's worse than contempt, it's abuse. He is looking for ways to make recovery from illness more difficult than it needs to be, and in turn hope some will come to work when they can't get a "regular" doctor visit in time - during a holiday week.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by karlkatzke on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:45PM (#34151311)
> calling a staffing emergency saying all hell is about to break loose

That memo is specifically about ground operations at DEN, and specifically because of the arctic weather conditions and a high number of sick calls and ramp agents that outright quit. You can earn more flipping burgers in Denver than you can as a SWA gate agent with five years of experience. Failing to pay staff is also a management failure.

The scheduling software crashed due to the number of pilots and flight attendants that were out of position and the number of changes that were made to the schedule. I would imagine that there was an overflow in some situation -- i.e. "the number of changed schedules should never exceed 65535" that worked every year until this one. But this system was already known to be unstable, another Reddit comment said that "there are settings you don't change for fear the entire thing will crash." Which it has before in 2016. Not expecting that history will repeat itself and doing something about it is also a management failure.

> Also its pretty much an airport thing and not an airline thing

Absolutely incorrect. While the airport runs the automated conveyance system that gets the bag from where the rampers drop it to the baggage claim, the people that handle the baggage at every manual step in between are SWA employees. If there aren't enough of them, the bags don't make it on the plane on time.

Notice that the people doing this work for Southwest Airlines are all wearing Southwest uniforms.

Like most complicated failures, this was failure with multiple causes and contributing factors. The core of the problem seems to be that management was rent-seeking without making appropriate structural changes to keep up with system load.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by barkingcat on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @12:57PM (#34151456)
luggage is totally an airline thing, not an airport thing
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by jcomis on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:06PM (#34152420)
I flew out of Denver after several delays/cancels and not only was the baggage area full of bags, the outside gate area was absolutely flooded with bags COVERED in snow. Which means they have been there for days. I'm talking dozens and dozens of haulers loaded to the brim with bags covered in snow. The baggage area was wall to wall bags.

Additionally I was told (by a crew member) Southwest refused to meet wage demands with ramp / fuel crews so they all quit. Apparently they sent them an email basically saying a recession is coming so be thankful you have a job... Meanwhile all other jobs pay more in the area. Anecdote I know, but we did have to wait 2.5 hours for fuel on my flight.

Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by chasd00 on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:20PM (#34152596)
a people problem like you describe seems much much harder to solve in any reasonable time frame compared to a software issue.
Re:Southwest cancels 5,400 flights in less than 48 hours by verall on Tuesday December 27, 2022 @02:23PM (#34152621)
There's tons of people without bags, and additionally due to the total operational breakdown there is no one to ask about where your bag is and hear any idea about what's going to happen.