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Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by qikInNdOutReply on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:18AM (#34078387)
>But then all of a sudden, around 1980, that progress slowed, stopped, and in many ways reversed.

Conveniently the moment, large scale spyplanes confirmed the sovjet union was a messy paper tiger, not the industrial science powerhouse it propaganda made it out to be. Ever after that, it was crisis management and containement towards collapse. Before that it was panic and better-this-then-that-negotations with unions. It was a watershed moment back to the gilded age.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by hnbad on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:41AM (#34078552)
Care to elaborate for those unable to read between the lines?
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by zjp on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:50AM (#34078612)
When we realized the Soviet Union was about to collapse in on itself there was no more political (or moral, or whatever lens you want to look at it through) incentive to try to make our system any better than it was.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by vagrantJin on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:16AM (#34079191)
"We realized"

Haha. That's hilarious. The negligent hand waving of an enemy states collapse as a banal "realization" is the stuff of pure comedy.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by zjp on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @03:16PM (#34085837)
I await your treatise on the subject.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by simple-thoughts on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:02AM (#34078698)
Remember from the perspective of someone in the 1950s, a managed scientific communist system could be more efficient in the same way scientifically managed assembly lines replaced craftsmen. So in a lot of capitalist countries there was a constant fear that the communist system might actually be better and thus should be compromised with. Once the info about actual state of affairs in communist systems was revealed, it was no longer seen as a threat.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by hnfong on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:13AM (#34078790)
btw, Yuval Noah Harari repeatedly warned that advances in informatics and AI might actually solve the problem of central planning. The Soviets tried to do central planning without the means to transfer and process information cheaply. They didn't even have Excel (or Lotus 1-2-3 for that matter). If they failed only because the tools weren't good enough, it might be due for a comeback especially when AI systems could now plausibly take over those roles...
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by meheleventyone on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:36AM (#34078937)
Why is it a warning, wouldn’t it be a good thing if we could more efficiently allocate resources than the current system? And aren’t most corporations centrally planned economies on the inside?
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by Ieghaehia9 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:04AM (#34079103)
It's a warning if it isn't accompanied by great democratization, because the planned economy concentrates a lot of power in the hands of the planners.

Some proponents of planned economy (e.g. Cottrell) suggest that elected democracy should be replaced by sortition for just that reason. Or perhaps there are technical ways to make planning less centralized, say some kind of federated system with freely available real-time production data, where a new producer can decide what group of existing producers to join.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by hnbad on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:30AM (#34079817)
Incidentally, Cybersyn[0] promised to achieve that goal of automating central planning. Of course we never found out if it would have worked out as the system was destroyed during as part of the heavily US-backed coup replacing socialist Allende with the fascist Pinochet[1].

There are legitimate concerns surrounding the level of surveillance and automation necessary for such a system but they seem hollow from the present sociopolitical context where surveillance and automated decision making is normalized as part of the capitalist system rather than an aspirationally socialist one.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta...

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by zozbot234 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:28AM (#34080435)
Amazon is the new Cybersyn - and Walmart was it before Amazon. What do you think they're using all those hyperscale datacenters for? Central planning, that's what. (Except that if you don't like Amazon or Walmart's plans, you can just shop elsewhere. The plan for Cybersyn was that it would be your robot overlord - no alternatives allowed.)
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by KptMarchewa on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:23AM (#34080378)
>If they failed only because the tools weren't good enough

Anyone who claims that hasn't observed Soviet Union or Russia long enough. The failure was 99% due to "human element" not due to sophistication or not of some planning element.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by rob74 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @04:59AM (#34078679)
Yeah, that's my theory as well: as long as there was a "socialist block", the capitalist countries felt some kind of obligation to demonstrate that capitalism could also care for the not-so-well-off. After that, it was back to capitalism's essence of the rich (the exploiters, if you want to use socialist jargon) getting richer and the poor (the exploited) getting poorer.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by ndsipa_pomu on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:06AM (#34078727)
Having a strong "socialist block" could easily have the reverse effect whereby political discourse is scared away from socialist ideas as they are considered to be evil communism (c.f. McCarthyism). I would consider that a lot of mainstream media (owned by rich and powerful people) has attempted to keep alive the idea that socialism is the enemy and needs to be fought against.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by hnfong on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:10AM (#34078758)
Yet slightly left-leaning policies wouldn't look as "communist" when there's actually a communist state in existence.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by db48x on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:15AM (#34079188)
This is so dumb. The entire history of “capitalism” is of the rich getting richer and the poor getting richer too.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by marketerinland on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:14AM (#34079649)
They’ve been saying that the poor are getting poorer my entire life.

Yet in my country, we’re healthier; longer living; and yes the average person is wealthier than ever before.

It’s physically impossible for the poor to get poorer every year without a complete societal collapse. Yet people keep repeating this line.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by bjornsing on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:38AM (#34082926)
It has nothing to do with reality. It’s socialist jargon.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by bladelessninja2 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:45AM (#34083008)
Reading this topic, I'm so glad there are people who can see this, there is some hope in this nonsense I see around.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by HKH2 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:54PM (#34087465)
You're talking about absolute poverty and they're talking about relative poverty.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by objetovoador on Thursday December 22, 2022 @03:19PM (#34098097)
In many culture war debates there's a consistent theme of ignoring and/or discounting absolute figures and monomaniacally focusing on relative figures.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by marketerinland on Monday December 26, 2022 @02:44AM (#34135629)
‘The poor getting poorer’ refers to absolute poverty.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by s3000 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @05:53AM (#34079033)
With the growth of China, will the pre-1980 times come back?
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by ZeroGravitas on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:15AM (#34079183)
I think one confounder is whether waging a war requires a lot of human beings.

If it does, then you need some kind of modern society to keep them relatively happy, or they'll fight for the other side. If you can deploy killer drone robots, then you don't need to worry about what the population thinks as much.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by lp4vn on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:14AM (#34079178)
In the 60's western economists were afraid that the authoritarian central planning of the Soviet Union was intrinsically more efficient than the slowly adapting free market to the extent where economists started to study ways of incorporating the sovietic dynamic in the west. [https://www.gsid.nagoya-u.ac.jp/sotsubo/Krugman.pdf]

Now China doesn't represent any kind of alternative model that risks replacing the one adopted by western countries, unlike the Soviet Union. Realistically nobody is afraid of being taken over by China. So I think that any kind of impact that China might have in this regard would be quite limited.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:24AM (#34079236)
There is quite a lot of fear of China being ahead or getting ahead, and it is being exploited by tech companies to secure funding from the department of defense: https://t.co/7by2iroWWD
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by toyg on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @08:31AM (#34080469)
It's a different type of fear.

Competition from a completely alien culture can generate mobilization, i.e. different societal strata working together for a common purpose. This is what the US is doing with China today, or did with Japan in the '80s.

What the USSR generated was different: it was the fear that the lower classes could band together, overthrow the established order, and actually succeed in running the country. It wasn't an attack from an alien culture, that the establishment feared; it was successful subversion from within. There is no fear of that when it comes to China.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Thursday December 22, 2022 @09:03AM (#34093307)
Yes, every external force that has influenced the US is unique in some dimension.

To me the biggest difference between China and Japan is that China is much more likely to challenge the US among all dimensions of power, whereas my understanding of Japan in the 80s is that they simply started to be slightly competitive in an economic dimension.

So I do think that there is a higher likelihood that China’s rise opens up more debates about certain deep assumptions we have in the US than Japan’s did. And some of these may be about the primacy of private property. Private property is not a law of physics but it is a very deeply set assumption we have. The idea that housing is an investment more than it is a human necessity is something that may be worth questioning more and more. If investor owned housing in the US keeps trending up (already around 20%) then at some point it will likely be helpful to have another successful system to point at and learn from for solutions.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:08AM (#34079137)
I have many issues with the CCP but as long as large scale war is avoided, this will be the silver lining in its rise. Hopefully there are clearer successes of some socialist aspects our society can learn from.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by qikInNdOutReply on Friday December 23, 2022 @03:41AM (#34103611)
There is nothing socialist about china. Its a cooperation state in its purest form.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by yakubin on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:02AM (#34079092)
China is a capitalist country.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:09AM (#34079140)
China is run by the Chinese communist party. You can’t own a house there (only a 99 year lease) and their notion of private property is very different. It’s not that simple.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by yakubin on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:41AM (#34079366)
None of that screams workers rights, nor welfare of the common people. Quite the contrary. If Marx was living in the XXI-st century, he’d be writing about Chinese instead of English factories. In fact the lack of workers rights makes it more reminiscent of theoretical capitalism than anything in the West.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @09:46AM (#34081340)
All I am saying is that it's a vast oversimplification of an economic and political system composed of over 1 billion people to simply say "it's capitalist". The overarching point here is that as China rises hopefully we in the US can learn something from their system and integrate it into ours. The idea that we can't do so because "they are a capitalist country and so are we" is reductionist and I was trying to point out ways in which that was the case.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by qikInNdOutReply on Friday December 23, 2022 @03:50AM (#34103668)
You want to integrate "the individual is nothing" and the birthplace caste system?

You are aware of the reality behind the shiny propaganda videos of skyscrapers?

The anti-meritocracy, were beeing born into party aristocracy gives you undeserved jobs, whose lack-of-skills underpaid underlings have to compensate for if you screw up? The reactionary politic changes, that always trigger if things are to late? The absence of any plan beyond keeping the status quo?

Look at the zero covid, were literally a revolution has to happen, for a unfeasable plan and the corresponding corruption to be undone? Literally all initiatives and plans result in this, a surface level placation, corruption cancer growth beneath and suffering by the citizens who made the economic miracle of china really happening - against the ccp resistance.

This is what you want to integrate into western societies? Why?

I understand the utopian, shangri-la projections of the failed western left, but please not on some labor camp..

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Sunday December 25, 2022 @09:08AM (#34127334)
They certainly have their fair share of negative aspects that I wouldn’t want to integrate.

To be more concrete one specific thing I would like to see more of in the US is some sort of change to the political process that would allow more engineers to get into positions of power. Right now it’s all lawyers, and I think this is a big reason why the US is not good at large infrastructure projects anymore (California high speed rail, building more nuclear plants etc.)

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by snapplebobapple on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @10:05AM (#34081573)
It isn't though. a capitalist country would have private ownership and control of companies. China has government companies and government control of private companies and works lock step all together to keep the average joe in line and the factories churning out product. They now even have a strong man in charge for life. Therefore, China is more accurately described as a communist country that saw communism didn't work so they spent half a century pivoting to fascism while keeping the commie colors and aesthetic motifs.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by kodyo on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @10:55AM (#34082297)
It's a fascist country with a managed economy.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by VulgarExigency on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:08AM (#34079134)
> What would happen if capital succeeded in smashing the Republic of Soviets? There would set in an era of the blackest reaction in all the capitalist and colonial countries, the working class and the oppressed peoples would be seized by the throat, the positions of international communism would be lost.

J. V. Stalin, 1926

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by oblio on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:31AM (#34079287)
Stalin is your go-to ideologue for this, really?
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by VulgarExigency on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:54AM (#34079465)
Was he wrong?

Regardless, yes, he is. I am a marxist-leninist.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by oblio on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @07:23AM (#34079738)
Well, he is, depending on your perspective.

For the developed countries, yes, there's a regression for the lower and middle classes.

For developing countries, which are very much developing due to capitalism, there is a <<huge>> improvement in quality of life right now.

I'd argue that life is improving for more people (in developing countries) than it's regressing (in developed countries).

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by hulitu on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:44AM (#34082984)
>For developing countries, which are very much developing due to capitalism, there is a <<huge>> improvement in quality of life right now.

And which are the coutries "which are very much developing due to capitalism" ?

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by oblio on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:53AM (#34083117)
Rephrasing that. Many developing countries are growing quickly due to capitalism.

So, which developing countries are growing thank to capitalism?

All of them.

All the rising developing countries are rising thanks to capitalism. China, Vietnam, South Korea/Taiwan (already developed by now), Romania, Poland, Czechia, Botswana, etc.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by bjornsing on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:50AM (#34083066)
And perhaps that’s not only economically sensible but also morally just.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by kodyo on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @10:57AM (#34082337)
He certainly set a high bar for the blackest of reactions to things.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by bladelessninja2 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @11:48AM (#34083046)
> I am a marxist-leninist

How does it feel to support ideology that killed millions of people and sentenced multiple times more to live in poverty?

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by VulgarExigency on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:08PM (#34083335)
I don't support capitalism.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by bladelessninja2 on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:34PM (#34083704)
Funny, but we are in an adult conversation now, you can't ignore facts with just some joke. Grow up.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by the_third_wave on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @12:53PM (#34083985)
It is a sad thing that you can state this without most people even twitching an eye while had you stated you were a national socialist everyone would shun you. The sad thing does not lie in the shunning of the national socialists but in the fact that its internationalist brethren in socialism are not treated in a similar fashion even though this ideology has destroyed far more lives than the former. Marxism-Leninism and its spin-offs - Stalinism, Maoism. Juche et al - deserve to be in the same corner as national socialism but alas, these ideologies thrive in places of education and as such children and students are mostly or only told of the evils of Nazism. I can see this happen at my daughter's school where they've focused a large part of their curriculum around just that, including a visit to Auschwitz. I proposed they'd also spend some time on studying Solidarność and its struggle against the Soviets given that they were in Poland where the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union took place but this was not to be.
Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by TheOtherHobbes on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:11AM (#34079149)
The neoliberal counter-reformation was planned long before then. The Chicago School and Hayek had already been planted and nurtured. The shift started in the late 70s with organised attacks on the concept of unionisation, socialised welfare, and government investment, combined with aggressive promotion of the private sector as a glorious, efficient, and generous engine of progress.

All of this was carefully seeded and very deliberately promoted and funded immediately after WWII. The most obvious example was the Mont Pelerin Society, which was given to Hayek to organise and wasn't just ideologically anti-Marxist, but aggressively anti-Keynesian.

The fall of the Soviet Union accelerated this process by finally removing much of the organised opposition to it. But it was already up and running long before Gorbachev became President.

Re:I was a useful idiot for capitalism by dontreact on Wednesday December 21, 2022 @06:16AM (#34079192)
There were many movements planned in the 1970s, but the failure of the Soviet system seems like the key driving force in the rise of this one to me.