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Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by Hnrobert42 on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:15AM (#34053004)
The accuracy of science aside, can we all agree that the acronym PEACE & LOVE is trash?

Rest Ice Compression Elevation may be wrong, but it is at least easy to understand, memorize, and explain. When my friend hurts their ankle, I want to pass on the latest, vetted wisdom. I don’t want to sound like a jackass saying, “O is for optimism. But we are not done yet. V is for vascularization. You don’t have much control over it, but we need to the round out the word LOVE. The third E is for …”

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by optimuspaul on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:38AM (#34053306)
I don't think you'd sound like a jackass saying "O is for optimism. But we are not done yet. V is for vascularization...." but wouldn't you rather sound like a jackass than give bad advice? I'd rather hear this than the clinical robotic "Rest Ice Compression Elevation", I mean come on, I'm a person!
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by SamBam on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:06AM (#34053664)
I'm not sure how "Rest Ice Compression Elevation" is "clinical robotic" and "vascularization" isn't...
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by ralusek on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:50AM (#34054284)
> than the clinical robotic

> I'm a person [not a robot]!

> optimuspaul

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by wmeredith on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:31AM (#34053219)
Yes, this makes me cringe. It's overly cute and is a stretch.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by yshavit on Monday December 19, 2022 @11:41AM (#34054164)
"Education" maybe the worst of them. One of the what-to-do steps is... learn what to do? Talk about drawing the rest of the freaking owl.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by filesystem on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:08PM (#34054537)
Yes this one is comically bad. The description is even worse: "Your body knows best. Avoid unnecessary passive treatments and medical investigations and let nature play its role."

So really this is preaching anti-education. Do not seek out information about your injury.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:50PM (#34055106)
It seems like a lot of folks have responded to conspiracy idiocy by going all-out anti-learning in favor of blind deferral to experts. Even if I thought that was wise, telling people not to research their injuries is like telling the tide not to come in. Better to focus on identifying trustworthy information.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by kelipso on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:11PM (#34056247)
Seriously. It's a trend I've noticed with a lot of anti-misinformation people, including with my friends and family, where they skip the learning and critical thinking part and just buy straight into whatever is said by someone who calls themselves an expert.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emberfiend on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:01PM (#34055274)
They certainly worded it poorly, but what they meant was "voodoo doesn't work". As in, educate your patient about their wacky home remedies, and try to get them to engage with realistic recovery outcomes.

From the paper:

> E for educate

> Therapists should educate patients on the benefits of an active approach to recovery. Passive modalities, such as electrotherapy, manual therapy or acupuncture, early after injury have insignificant effects on pain and function compared with an active approach, and may even be counterproductive in the long term. Indeed, nurturing an external locus of control or the ‘need to be fixed’ can lead to therapy- dependent behaviour. Better education on the condition and load management will help avoid overtreatment. This in turn reduces the likelihood of unnecessary injections or surgery, and supports a reduction in the cost of healthcare (eg, due to disability compensation associated with low back pain). In an era of hi- tech therapeutic options, we strongly advocate for setting realistic expectations with patients about recovery times instead of chasing the ‘magic cure’ approach.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by jwally on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:35PM (#34054898)
Does "Education" lead to recursion?
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emberfiend on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:02PM (#34055290)
These are guidelines for medical practitioners, who are well-placed to educate their patients.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by munch117 on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:02PM (#34056883)
Read them again. Where the guidelines say "you", they are clearly addressing the injured party.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by jvanderbot on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:04PM (#34054485)
MEAT. Movement Exercise Analgesiacs Treatment

https://progressiveptandrehab.com/rice-and-meat-physical-the...

TLDR; IRRC: Don't take anti-inflammatory, don't keep it stationary, don't fight swelling at all, but do keep it moving and teach your body to avoid the motion that caused the injury.

So easy to remember, since, you know, we damaged our meat in these types of injury.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by hannasm on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:35PM (#34054890)
Avoiding the motion that caused the injury is one of the most challenging issues to overcome. The body naturally tries to stop you from making the same mistakes again but these compensation strategies may significantly reduce athletic performance and in many cases actually cause new injuries because the original motor pattern was the ideal one and the compensated motion is just next best. Keep adding them up over the course of a human lifespan and it's no wonder our bodies break down so much.

In the short term it may be beneficial to avoid a certain muscle or area, but eventually you have to get it turned back on too.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by TylerE on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:51PM (#34055117)
Yep. Been dealing with diabetic foot ulcers for the past year+. No fun. Had one on the left that was pretty bad, and as that was healing all the offloading I was doing caused me to develop another one (less serious, luckily...) on the other foot.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:54PM (#34055165)
Not just for athletes: this is equally applicable to keyboard jockeys with repetitive strain injuries. One of the reasons braces are actually counterindicated.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:51PM (#34055121)
If we're supposed to avoid analgesics what are they doing in the acronym?
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by jvanderbot on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:36PM (#34056558)
Analgesics are not anti inflammatory medication, they are pain relief meds, if I understand. Analgesics are ok for pain relief according to MEAT
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:52PM (#34056761)
Which painkillers are not also anti-inflammatory drugs? All the OTC ones are NSAIDs.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by jvanderbot on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:58PM (#34056822)
Well, acetaminophen is not NSAID, that's why you can take acetaminophen with ibuprofen for really bad headaches. That's what Excedrin is.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @03:02PM (#34056873)
Well, I’d suggest making “A” stand for acetaminophen then.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by jvanderbot on Monday December 19, 2022 @04:14PM (#34057813)
Ah, it's not the only one, it's just one? If you want to share it that way, that's probably fine by everyone.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by TylerE on Monday December 19, 2022 @05:08PM (#34058438)
Not available in the US, but in many countries various acetaminophen+codeine preperations are available (at limited strength) OTC. "Tylenol 3" is a common one
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by Vox_Leone on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:43PM (#34054993)
>> Over the years, acronyms guiding their management have evolved from ICE to RICE[1], then to PRICE[2] and POLICE (...) (PEACE) to subsequent management (LOVE). PEACE & LOVE (...)

Boy, really? I was interested until stumbling on those bits. We've certainly reached peak-acronym.

[edit] And now I see it's an old story.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by Mountain_Skies on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:45PM (#34055033)
Canada's use of MAID (Medical Assistance In Dying) is a creepy one for euthanasia. Seems to imply that dying people are a dirty mess to be swept out the door and into the trash bin.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:48PM (#34055067)
Have you read the stories about ill people being pressured to get it because their care is too expensive? Maybe that isn't an accident.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by SapporoChris on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:13PM (#34055443)
I have not. I would be interested in reading more about this. Can you provide links?
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by emodendroket on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:19PM (#34055537)
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/chronically-ill-man-releases-a...

> An Ontario man suffering from an incurable neurological disease has provided CTV News with audio recordings that he says are proof that hospital staff offered him medically assisted death, despite his repeated requests to live at home.

> Roger Foley, 42, who earlier this year launched a landmark lawsuit against a London hospital, several health agencies, the Ontario government and the federal government, alleges that health officials will not provide him with an assisted home care team of his choosing, instead offering, among other things, medically assisted death.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by Traubenfuchs on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:30PM (#34055679)
Adding to the other guys story, have a second one!

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/252991/canadian-vete...

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by neoecos on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:52PM (#34055994)
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by Izkata on Monday December 19, 2022 @02:37PM (#34056574)
Not specifically about that part, but another factoid that may be interesting:

> In 2021, there were 10,064 MAID provisions reported in Canada, accounting for 3.3% of all deaths in Canada.

From an official government report: https://archive.ph/xD0wD#selection-3057.0-3057.107

Numbers aren't out yet for 2022, and in 2023 it opens up to mental illness as well.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by jedmeyers on Monday December 19, 2022 @12:58PM (#34055236)
BOBODDY. The first B stands for Biznus.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by saurik on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:05PM (#34055325)
Even the actual non-metaphorical parts are Annoying. "A is for... I think it was Anti-inflammatories?" "No no, I think it was Avoid anti-inflammatories..." "Damn that distinction seems important :/."
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by PhileasNietzche on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:31PM (#34055695)
Yes. Let us put the scientific accuracy of a scientific research paper to the side and focus on the difficulty of a nine-letter acronym.

"Couldn't they have come up with something simpler, since the healing of soft-tissue injuries is so simple?"

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by gretch on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:52PM (#34056000)
The comment section is vast and plentiful. It's okay to talk about things that aren't limited to scientific accuracy. In fact, that's exactly what you did with your comment.
Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by gamblor956 on Monday December 19, 2022 @01:56PM (#34056056)
I learned it as HELM: Heat, Exercise [the the appendage or body part through its range of motion], Lower [the appendage or body part] and Massage.

Basically the opposite of RICE, all 4 were focused on maximizing blood flow to the soft tissue injury. And anecdotally, I can confirm it works way better than RICE or the alternatives. I used to be out for 2-3 weeks after running issues when I used RICE, etc. After I switched to HELM I was back on the pavement the next morning.

The issue with HELM is that it can be significantly more painful than RICE, etc., as you must avoid using anti-inflammatories and painkillers.

Re:Ice not recommended for soft tissue injury treatment by slowmovintarget on Monday December 19, 2022 @10:38PM (#34061228)
PENCE - Protection, Elevation, No anti-inflammatories, Compression, Exercise

Hippies will hate it, though.