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Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by ravenstine on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:28PM (#34018966)
Basically, yes, because a lot of people don't really know what being pretentious or a hipster actually means. The passage of time has lead to both terms being misunderstood and simultaneously conflated.

In order for someone to actually be pretentious, there has to be a pretense. Being purposefully non-mainstream doesn't make someone pretentious as much as a more normal individual would like to believe. Hipsters aren't necessarily pretentious. Being a hipster means rejecting something because of it's mainstream or establishment properties, and most likely for that sake alone. A hipster might be pretentious if their image is disingenuous (ex. pooh-poohing something publicly while appreciating it secretly), but that doesn't have to describe all hipsters.

I get called a hipster because I effectively dislike or have no interest in many things that most people consider good. When something becomes mainstream, I like it less because I believe something going from unknown to mainstream is usually a bad sign, and that instinct is almost always right. Breaking Bad was way better until everyone started slobbering over it and chanted "get back to cooking meth bruh", and look how it ended. Such a long way for a ham sandwich. haha

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by HardlyCurious on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:42PM (#34019211)
Rejection of the mainstream / establishment properties is the pretense.

It isn't that you like something, it's that you don't want to be associated to some other things. And you don't want to be associated to those other things because of some pretense about what associating to those things means.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by ravenstine on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:28PM (#34019865)
That's not a pretense. The word you're looking for is pretext. Rejecting the mainstream is completely a legitimate position on its own. The only way it can be a pretense is if it's done for appearance only. Well, maybe there are other ways, but that's the only one I can think of at the moment.

Maybe this is confusing because of the phrase "false pretense", which is redundant and can lead to some people thinking that there's such a thing as a pretense that isn't false-ish.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by HardlyCurious on Saturday December 17, 2022 @08:02AM (#34027409)
My previous comment wasn't worded the best.

At the end of the day, I think the pretentiousness comes from superiority signalling. When a vegan talks about how eating meat is wrong the implication is that they feel morally superior to those who eat meat. And when someone rejects things generally, as opposed to just liking their own things, it implies that those things they reject aren't worth consideration, and hence anyone who does has some inferior judgement or taste.

The statement "I would never listen to disco music" implies there is something wrong with doing so, and hence something wrong with those who choose to. "I would never listen to disco music" is a pretentious statement.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by Lammy on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:41PM (#34019199)
> a lot of people don't really know what being pretentious or a hipster actually means

https://catandgirl.com/riddle-me-this/

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by LarryMullins on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:46PM (#34019272)
I've got a theory that the TV show Firefly is appreciated today because it got cancelled before it was popular; they quit when they were ahead and before popularity ruined it. But most Firefly fans seem to hate my theory.
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by dudeofea on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:40PM (#34020042)
Firefly was a mistake,

in that the corporate machine made a mistake in not extracting all that it could from it in follow-up seasons, movies, sequels, etc.

You know how good a movie is by how many sequels it took to kill it.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by rdlw on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:24PM (#34019808)
Well yes, most people react poorly to "The reason you love the thing you love is not because it is good, but for <shallow/superficial reason>"
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by LarryMullins on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:38PM (#34020012)
No, I'm saying that Firefly is and was good. It never got a chance to become bad.
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by ghaff on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:30PM (#34020708)
And even if not become bad... For myself I have something called the 5 season rule. Not literal (quite) but somewhere around 5 seasons I just get bored--even if the show if still on a good trajectory, which it often isn't.
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by echelon on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:22PM (#34019783)
I think you're absolutely correct. The show was campy, and in time, would have become grating and fallen apart.

Star Wars, once lauded, has been milked dry. There are a few good works, but by and large they're beating a dead horse.

The same thing is happening to Marvel. People checked out after Endgame.

Game of Thrones was so near to perfection. It had an unusually large cast of a hundred characters and an expansive world to draw down. But even if the new show is good, the magic is gone.

The mystery of Stranger Things after season one ended. We're getting a rehash with common character tropes you can find anywhere.

The allure of Westworld softened after season one attempted to open up to bigger themes, but actually cut down on the possibility space.

The third Godfather. Dexter. Every single Jurassic Park but the first. Jaws. On and on.

Chiefly, it's simply a function of multiplied probabilities to continue with a success streak. Eventually the odds do not pay off in your favor.

But I think another contributing factor is that our brains begin to fit the shape of the setting, the motifs, the character arcs, the narrative world - and we just aren't surprised or pleased any longer. Few people would ask for twenty seasons of a show. Or ten movies in a given franchise. Our brains learn the shape of the landscape and grow bored.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by HWR_14 on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:36PM (#34019995)
> The same thing is happening to Marvel. People checked out after Endgame.

First, it would be weird to say that was because Marvel was falling apart. It was the conclusion of a decade long movie franchise. Of course people might watch something else once the story they had been following was done. It doesn't mean they won't come back or didn't like the new movies, it means they wanted a break.

But mainly, it's also not true. Leaving aside 2020 (when Marvel released their movies all online), let's look at 2021. 4 out of the top 10 movies were Marvel movies (including number 1).

In 2022, they have 3 of the top 10 slots. They were beaten out by the Top Gun reboot and the latest Jurassic Park

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by echelon on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:04PM (#34020350)
> it means they wanted a break

My point exactly. We tire of the familiar.

> 4 out of the top 10 movies were Marvel movies

Disney operates at a scale none of their peers can match. They have the most well tuned pipeline of any production company. I'd expect this.

Nevertheless, metrics point to declining interest. If I had time to write a longer comment, I'd be able to cite sources and offer more than just a suggestion to google "marvel fatigue".

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by HWR_14 on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:28PM (#34021471)
Wanting something different is not the statement that you were originally making. Your original contention was that quality goes down, it "becomes grating and falls apart".
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by BLKNSLVR on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:45PM (#34020892)
> They were beaten out by the Top Gun reboot and the latest Jurassic Park

Which is both sad and hilarious in the context of this thread

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by HWR_14 on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:27PM (#34021441)
I mean, rounding out the top 10 of 2022 are the latest Minions, Batman, Harry Potter, Sonic the Hedgehog (for some reason) and a sequel to a Chinese movie which was in the top 10 in 2021. Nothing original at all in 2022, and the big things that may still break into the top 10 (e.g. Avatar 2) are also sequels.

In 2021, the only original things were the highest production cost Chinese movie in history that glorified the Chinese army vanquishing their enemies (South Korea, the US) in the Korean War (this is the one that got a sequel) and a Chinese comedy. The western movies were the latest Bond, Fast and Furious, Kong vs. Godzilla, and Sing 2.

(A Chinese movie series also was in the top 10 in 2021)

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by ghaff on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:27PM (#34020673)
Yeah, some of the sometimes literal Wild West in space was fun given appealing characters. Even Serenity worked pretty well. I'm not sure how it would have played out longer term. I certainly probably appreciate it better as a brief fan fave than something that maybe wore out its welcome sooner rather than later.
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by rufus_foreman on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:30PM (#34021485)
>> Star Wars, once lauded, has been milked dry. There are a few good works, but by and large they're beating a dead horse

That's been true since 1983.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by goatlover on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:56PM (#34020253)
How does something being popular ruin its quality? The reason people diss hipsters is because they’re reacting to what other people enjoy instead of just liking something for its own sake.
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by BLKNSLVR on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:41PM (#34020849)
Popular songs are ruined by being ubiquitous. They're everywhere for a period of time. Over concentrated. Inescapable. And from that point, ruined.

Popular movies get discussed to death and over-mis-interpreted to the point where just the mention of it causes a mental effort to ignore the assumed sycophantic rambling that's to follow.

Popularity ruins perceived quality by the nature of media to seize upon it and, as someone else said in a slightly different context above, squeeze every last cent of profit out of the opportunity that's presented by it's popularity.

Technically it doesn't affect the quality, but it adds a thick layer of media slime that can take years to dry up and fall off.

Lastly, popularity and quality are two scales that have interesting intersections. It's a concept I'd actually like to investigate further.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by mitchdoogle on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:14PM (#34020486)
I suppose popularity could inflate the creators' egos, leading them to make unilateral decisions without any advice or input from others. Not necessarily a bad thing, especially if the creator was already making unilateral decisions, but if before the popularity there was a group of people making decisions (such as a writers room for a television show) and after popularity they stop doing that, then there is a risk the quality goes down. Of course that's just one possibility of how popularity could lead to a reduction in quality, and its not the popularity itself that is the cause, it is a change in decision-making procedure. So in general, I would say it is disingenuous and pretentious to dislike something because of its popularity. It's not a valid reason
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by LarryMullins on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:15PM (#34021256)
> I suppose popularity could inflate the creators' egos, leading them to make unilateral decisions without any advice or input from others. Not necessarily a bad thing, especially if the creator was already making unilateral decisions, but if before the popularity there was a group of people making decisions (such as a writers room for a television show) and after popularity they stop doing that, then there is a risk the quality goes down.

Kojima and the Metal Gear series.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by LarryMullins on Friday December 16, 2022 @05:04PM (#34021116)
Several mechanisms. For one, a show running to long simply squeezes all the juice out of the premise. Popular shows are kept running too long to extract all the money out of them, but they become soulless and formulaic towards the end.

Another mechanism is flanderization, in which writers simplify characters or other aspects of the show for various reasons, mostly laziness and to conform to expectations the audience develops about how characters should act. Characters with depth become shallow shadows of their past selves as one aspect of their personality starts to dominate the others. When characters are driven by audience expectations instead of the writer's internal muse, they become soulless and predictable.

Another is overdeveloping the setting. Throwaway lines in earlier media get needlessly turned into developed storylines. It leaves less to the imagination. This is often related to the first mechanism I mention; the writers squeezing all the juice out of the earlier media.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by scelerat on Friday December 16, 2022 @02:59PM (#34019461)
I feel "hipster" can be boiled down to something which is leveled only as a mildly pejorative epithet, and frequently by those who are secretly envious of the subject's aesthetic, or their freedom to exhibit it.
Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by drewcoo on Friday December 16, 2022 @03:25PM (#34019820)
Well, if we're going to talk "really means," then . . .

Hipsters are people who follow trends. They try to be "hip."

Rejecting things because everyone else likes them is not being a hipster. It's being a contrarian.

Re:‘Luddite’ Teens Don’t Want Your Likes by mitchdoogle on Friday December 16, 2022 @04:09PM (#34020426)
"When something becomes mainstream, I like it less because I believe something going from unknown to mainstream is usually a bad sign"

If someone ever asks me for an example of a pretentious comment, I'm going to give them this