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Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by helsinkiandrew on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @09:44PM (#33979403)
> Singh will definitely get prison time as well

Remember Alamada wasn’t a normal customer. It was acting as a market maker/counterparty of last resort to many other FTX customers. In that case there could be situations where ‘normal customer liquidation rules’ shouldn’t apply - it can go in the red temporarily to enable others to trade (and FTX to make commission).

From the facts in the article (which are obviously not complete) if I was Singh my defence would be I assumed/was told the changes were to support Alamadas role as market maker and their actual long term exposure was being monitored elsewhere.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by edouard-harris on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @10:59PM (#33979859)
> Remember Alamada wasn’t a normal customer. It was acting as a market maker/counterparty of last resort to many other FTX customers. In that case there could be situations where ‘normal customer liquidation rules’ shouldn’t apply

This might be a reasonable argument in a vacuum, except that:

> [SBF] told investors and prospective investors that FTX had top-notch, sophisticated automated risk measures in place to protect customer assets, that those assets were safe and secure, and that Alameda was just another platform customer with no special privileges. [emphasis added]

And also:

> Bankman-Fried also told investors, and directed other FTX and Alameda employees to tell investors, that Alameda received no preferential treatment from FTX. For example, Bankman-Fried told the Wall Street Journal in or around July 2022: “There are no parties that have privileged access.” Likewise, in a Bloomberg article published in or about September 2022, Bankman-Fried claimed that “Alameda is a wholly separate entity” than FTX. In the same article, Ellison is quoted as stating about Alameda: “We’re at arm’s length and don’t get any different treatment from other market makers.” Bankman-Fried made similar statements directly to investors. [emphasis added]

(The above are direct quotes from the SEC complaint [1] against SBF.)

Singh might argue that he wasn't aware of the private statements to investors. But the WSJ and Bloomberg stories show the "arm's length" claim was something they consistently messaged to the public at the highest levels. To argue that Alameda's role as market maker of last resort justified a privileged status would be inconsistent with all their prior public claims to the contrary. "We lied to the public repeatedly about our risk management" isn't a defense; it's a confession.

[1] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2022/comp-pr2022-2...

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by db48x on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @11:26PM (#33979995)
It’s potentially a defense for the engineer though, if he had nothing to do with the advertising. Of course it’s all just idle speculation; the real interesting stuff will come out in the trial, years upon years from now.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by RF_Savage on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:54AM (#33981086)
The engineer would have a hard time claiming ignorance with multiple widely reported public statements about how Alameda had no special priviledges.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by rxhernandez on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:22AM (#33981223)
Should an engineer be tracking what their company is telling media outlets? No one else is tasked with looking at my code except other engineers; why should engineers spend their precious time making sure that other business units are performing their duties ethically?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by TheNorthman on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @04:29AM (#33981575)
Probably because the whole Topf & Söhne debacle doesn't need repeating? Engineers are of course partly responsible for the things they implement.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by roenxi on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:17AM (#33982490)
> Engineers are of course partly responsible for the things they implement.

That is outrageous. The company owners have limited liability protections. The employees should receive at least that unless they are in a position that requires specific legal training like an engineer legislatively appointed to be responsible for some safety function. Where they are appointed and remunerated specifically for their legal responsibility, in other words.

And the court cases after WWII are hardly reliable precedent. They were basically making it up as they went with fairly flimsy justification apart from the fact they had a bunch of troops still in fighting form.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by enkid on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:41AM (#33982696)
Limited liability protects against financial loss, not criminal indictment. If you are an employee or owner and you do something to enable fraud the company as a whole is doing, you are still criminally liable.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by quickthrowman on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:45AM (#33982735)
> > Engineers are of course partly responsible for the things they implement.

> That is outrageous. The company owners have limited liability protections.

The owners have limited financial liability, not limited legal liability.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_liability

> Limited liability is a legal status in which a person's financial liability is limited to a fixed sum, most commonly the value of a person's investment in a corporation, company or partnership.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by morelisp on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:23AM (#33982544)
> > Engineers are of course partly responsible for the things they implement.

> That is outrageous.

And this is why software engineering is a joke.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by roenxi on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:28AM (#33982592)
Engineers are responsible for strictly technical failures. When a piece of software does what a representative of company management asks for it hasn't failed.

Software engineers are not lawyers and they are bad at interpreting laws.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by kasey_junk on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:03AM (#33982882)
I’ve received yearly training as part of my job outlining my civil and criminal liabilities as a software engineer going back 20 years. It’s par for the course in finance.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by rglullis on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:48AM (#33982754)
Engineering is all about working with constraints. Most of these are technical, but some of them are and should be ethical.

If the product of your engineering directly enables unethical actions, yes, you should bear some of the responsibility for it.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by morelisp on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:51AM (#33983434)
> Software engineers are not lawyers and they are bad at interpreting laws.

Right, so if something seems sketchy ("please ignore these specific deductions when calculating our holdings") , get a lawyer - or CEO or CFO or whatever - to say in writing that it's fine.

And if something seems actually illegal ("just run the blood test results out-of-spec and report them anyway") just don't do it. Nothing absolves you of some things.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by roenxi on Saturday December 17, 2022 @10:02AM (#34028278)
Sure. But if the engineer doesn't think it is sketchy enough to seek out a lawyer, why would they suddenly be liable for issues where they are obviously ignorant, and never expected to be competent?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by Avicebron on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:40AM (#33982688)
This isn't how ethics works, just doing my job doesn't work legally.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by t0suj4 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:32AM (#33981876)
Why should be someone responsible for how the product of their labor is being used?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by PeterisP on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:29AM (#33982596)
The tautological answer is that it's because we the people have made laws that in certain specific situations make people criminally responsible for how the product of their labor is being used.

The practical answer is that it's because we do want to discourage criminals from "splitting liability" by having most of a gang doing some illegal goal together stay "clean" and only delegating a single "fall guy" for the final touch; so criminal law is explicitly written to consider everyone who knowingly assists a crime to be partly liable as well.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by ithinkso on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:55AM (#33981998)
That's why be don't deserve the title of engineer in software and we should stick with coder or programmer.

'Hi mate. We just bought this rebar from Alibaba, saved as a ton of money. Could you sign here real quick? We need to finish that bridge!'

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by vintermann on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:15AM (#33982476)
Engineer doesn't imply honesty. In those jurisdiction where it's a protected title, it just implies that you have some mix of STEM topics in your degree. Software engineers, in these jurisdictions, have that mix, and are as real as bioengineers (a.k.a hospital lab workers), chemical process engineers, construction engineers, etc.

No one has had their engineer title taken away for being a crook, as far as I know. Unless the crooked thing they did was fake their diploma.

Titles won't fix this.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by thrwy_918 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @10:01AM (#33984311)
> No one has had their engineer title taken away for being a crook, as far as I know

This seems an absurd claim, unless you're going to get very pedantic about some distinction between "engineer title" and "legal right to function as an engineer".

> https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/engineer-s-licence-revoked-after...

This is one example found after just a few seconds of searching, but it is absolutely commonplace to have your engineering license revoked for carrying out criminal activity.

> In those jurisdiction where it's a protected title, it just implies that you have some mix of STEM topics in your degree.

This seems a bizarre claim too. In jurisdictions where membership of a professional licensing body is necessary in order to refer to oneself as an engineer and practice as an engineer, it is absolutely not the case that all you need is the right "mix of STEM topics in your degree". It means you have a certain degree, have completed a set amount of work experience, have completed a professional certification exam and then maintain that license, which may require meeting other requirements periodically. And yes, "not being a crook" is certainly one of those requirements, and being involved in major criminal activity, especially criminal activity related to your professional practice, is absolutely grounds for having your license and certification as an engineer revoked.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by morelisp on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:25AM (#33982566)
It doesn't imply honesty. It does imply liability, so if something bad happens because you're dishonest, you will lose the title, and suffer other consequences.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by t0suj4 on Friday December 16, 2022 @06:56AM (#34013584)
I see the sign off as a transaction where the signee assumes responsibility for results being up to spec and all bets are off at this point.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by laserlight on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:02AM (#33982053)
Why not? Why do we keep Apple responsible for Foxconn's labor practices? Isn't Foxconn an independent company after all? The reason is because we don't want evil to spread by externalizing the responsibility to third parties.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by mirchibajji on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:36AM (#33982214)
Which specific engineers or individuals from Apple did you have in mind?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by cyanydeez on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:03PM (#33992065)
The ones that specify foxconn parts
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by camgunz on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:09AM (#33982429)
Most things are ambiguous, so you can have an argument about what intent was. Even things like firearms, you can say, "well, I made this gun so people can use it in self defense".

This seems pretty unambiguous though. Sometimes you're just facilitating breaking the law, or making things dangerously unsafe.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by nailer on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:01AM (#33982042)
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by jackstraw14 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:57AM (#33982012)
> Should an engineer be tracking what their company is telling media outlets?

Are you serious? Make sure your ass is covered if you're doing illegal shit for your company, because they're never looking out for you over the org.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by bratbag on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:56AM (#33982349)
So you expect engineers to have a comprehensive knowledge of their companies media output, to use when qualifying the legality of code changes?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by jackstraw14 on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:59AM (#33982369)
> When individuals are responsible for the theft, loss, or unauthorized disclosure of PHI, the most common consequence is the loss of employment. However, in the most serious HIPAA violations, criminal charges can be filed against the individual(s) responsible.

Yep.

"comprehensive knowledge of their companies media output" is an interesting way to put it. I would really just recommend engineers maintain some sense of self awareness.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by db48x on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:16AM (#33981182)
Possibly. On the other hand, I’m not sure I’ve ever read any of my own company’s press releases. Was this guy an officer of the company?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by teawrecks on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:26AM (#33981853)
It is interesting how commit author could function here as a tech equivalent of "convincing some sucker to sign off on a legally dubious action".
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by meltedcapacitor on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:01AM (#33981116)
Not an excuse. They had a programme for external liquidators giving some slack for trades taking the other side of liquidating positions, so Alameda should have used that. This looks worse.

In any case it's not needed: liquidators get the 3% initial margin so are usually in profit. For the cases when the market moves faster than that, they should have done what the better-run exchanges do and close the most leveraged positions from the opposite side: if lots of longs get liquidated in aggregate the shorts get their profit trimmed by the losses of the longs beyond maintenance margin, in order of leverage, which is fair enough when duly documented in the terms.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:35AM (#33982641)
BLP fills were quite toxic, many trading firms turned this stuff on, found out that it was hugely money-losing, and turned it back off.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by adrr on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @12:32AM (#33980325)
I never understood why Alameda took risky bets when it could just make a bunch of cash off buy/ask spreads assuming trading volume was decent. Running the exchange they can front run any large trades and move the market.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by meltedcapacitor on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:52AM (#33981075)
Crypto is flooded with liquidity so market making is like selling ice to an eskimo.

These days a naive market making strategy in crypto just incinerates capital very reliably as the tiny bid ask spread is a small fraction of the adverse selection risk (whole spread moving past). They did probably make money on this in the early days and got smoked when the sophisticated tradfi players joined.

Front running large trades by looking at non public info on the order book is possible but this is also fraud, so not a strategy to avoid legal troubles, and it also only works if the large traders are naive and not adversarial (putting fake large orders to front run you etc).

What SBF could have done is close down Alameda when it was clear they were not competitive, and concentrate on growing the exchange by reinvesting the fees, but that would have clipped the growth and donations/acquisitions lifestyle to something much less flamboyant.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:38AM (#33982669)
> Crypto is flooded with liquidity so market making is like selling ice to an eskimo.

This is not true at all, in general quoting in these markets is absurdly capital-intensive compared to tradfi.

> These days a naive market making strategy in crypto just incinerates capital very reliably as the tiny bid ask spread is a small fraction of the adverse selection risk (whole spread moving past). They did probably make money on this in the early days and got smoked when the sophisticated tradfi players joined.

Are the sophisticated tradfi players here yet? Seems like no?

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by vitno on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:47AM (#33982750)
Of course sophisticated tradfi players are in crypto and have been for years making hand over fist in money.

Source: I work at a firm that does this.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:59AM (#33982838)
Great! I'm just continually surprised, because my firm is 4 people with a combined 1.5 years of very outdated tradfi experience and these markets are very good to us.

For example, it's surprising that big tradfi players were not able to prevent take-only basis arb bots written in Python running on a un-tuned VPS from printing five figures on individual new listings in mid 2021, or permitted us to click trade tokenized stock quarterly futures minutes from expiry for nearly guaranteed profit also in mid 2021.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by silasdavis on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:54AM (#33982336)
How is information on order books non public? Usually crypto order books are public APIs.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by neomantra on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:21AM (#33982518)
Some examples of hidden information that doesn't generally get disseminated in exchange orderbook APIs:

* Attribution: who's making the order?

* Short labelling... are they selling or shorting?

* Non-display or iceberg orders (not common in crypto?)

* Immediate-or-cancel orders... the executions hit the feed, but not the original order details. Also whiffs (order but no fill) don't get disseminated in any way.

* Certain order types that may rest on the exchanges order book but either don't have a specific price or display doesn't make sense... market orders, midpoint orders, pegged orders, auction order books (less common in crypto)

EDIT: On the attribution side -- they could also know the leverage any customer is taking and use that adversarially (which was the straw that broke their camel).

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by silasdavis on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:49AM (#33983403)
Thanks, yeah attribution is an interesting one. You usually have the cryptographic address of the maker but not any link to FTX account that might be responsible, and as you say the ability to correlate an order with other positions

> Certain order types that may rest on the exchanges order book but either don't have a specific price or display doesn't make sense.

I suppose orders than are designed to only be consumed by a matching engine don't need to be made public unless they are matched.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by meltedcapacitor on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @11:15AM (#33985635)
The order book from the API is at the very minimum delayed (by network and protocol latency if nothing else) and aggregated/sampled (full feed is too big), so an insider can have an advantage of more complete and timely data.

That's for honestly run APIs, then an exchange can play some games with that feed if they want to...

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by PeterisP on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:16AM (#33982482)
It depends on the time, it's public after the fact, but not-public during the time gap where someone like Alameda could do front-running by managing to get in other transactions before the loser's orders get executed, or before any others get the chance to take that order.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:39AM (#33982675)
Alameda was in general deeply incompetent. Front running your customers is not all that doable if you insist on using python.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by kasey_junk on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:59AM (#33982837)
You don’t need speed to front run someone you need special access, which Alameda had.

That said they are being accused of something much less sophisticated. They were allowed to take money out when they made money but didn’t have to pay money in when they lost.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:07AM (#33982929)
Even if you have special access, if you need 40ms (500ms p999) to compute a square root, you're not gonna be able to make worthwhile decisions on the basis of this access
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by Godel_unicode on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:56AM (#33984262)
Those times are wildly inaccurate on modern hardware with modern python, fwiw.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @09:59AM (#33984289)
These are our observed latencies for their risk checks after sending millions of orders per day for months at a time (which doesn't sound like much, and isn't much, but is the entire order rate that they gave us while we were doing 0.5% of the maker volume on their exchange).
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by Godel_unicode on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:22PM (#33993700)
So it’s not, as you previously stated, the time to compute a square root?
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @08:32PM (#33993798)
That seemed to be the most computationally demanding portion of their public documentation of the formulas involved
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by Godel_unicode on Thursday December 15, 2022 @08:51PM (#34008569)
You’re stating confidently that python is orders of magnitude slower than it actually is because of some pseudo code, which you haven’t seen implemented, and you called into across a network link?

…do you see the problem?

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by jack_pp on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @12:41AM (#33980369)
Arrogance, they thought they were smarter than the market.

There are people who make a living playing poker that are not intellectually gifted. Their secret? Do as you say, play boring, safe strategies that will guarantee you will make money in the long run. They might not run up 1000$ to 10000$ very often but they sure do win. However, remove discipline, add intellectual ability and an abundance of overconfidence and you get FTX and Alameda Research.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by rjzzleep on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:15AM (#33980894)
Judging from some of the videos that circulated from the Alameda CEO I'd say it's also a significant portion of incompetence. I'm not going to guess which one was more though.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by phire on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @03:22AM (#33981216)
Front running requires pretty invasive changes to the very performance critical parts of the trading engine. You have to analyse the queued trades, decide on a trading strategy and insert new trades, all without inserting too much latency.

It would be hard (but not impossible) to implement such functionality without dozens of software engineers being very aware of it's existence and the implications.

This kind of software change only touches the edges and can be done with much more plausible deniability. The exclusion to margin calls was a single if statement inserted by a single engineer with the justification Alameda were the primary market maker. The dashboard change might have been just a bug they avoided fixing (If you normally automatically margin call negative balances, why would your dashboard bother reporting negative balances?)

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by drexlspivey on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @04:19AM (#33981520)
Yeah its not as simple as putting two limit orders and collecting your fee. Market makers take huge risks when there is a big market move. When Luna crashed for example Alameda provided exit liquidity to traders and was left holding the bag.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:42AM (#33982702)
A lot of people have said this, but that day was easily the best day to be quoting. There was lots of volume on both sides all day, even as the price increment became very large compared to the price
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by bboygravity on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @01:05AM (#33980522)
You mean kind of like how the US market works now with PFOF?

And the fact that by far the largest market maker in the US is also a hedge fund (two different companies with the same owner(s), where have we seen that before?).

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by megablast on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @01:19AM (#33980613)
There was huge amounts of money to be made. They got too greedy, made a play for it, then the market dropped. If things kept going, it would have made them all a lot of money.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by hackerlight on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @05:43AM (#33981928)
You can't "just make a bunch of cash" by market making. It is extremely competitive and it wouldn't surprise me if they weren't capable of doing it.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by papito on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @02:33AM (#33980984)
SBF, through his industry connections, was able to figure out how to take the difference while trading Bitcoin between different countries, as the premiums are different. It's basically a legal money printer.

I am baffled by why fraud was necessary. I guess it's just means to an end for "effective altruism".

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by omarfarooq on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:11AM (#33982100)
Kimchi premium was arbed away.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by anonymoushn on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:31AM (#33982612)
FTX and Alameda publicly represented that Alameda's relationship with the exchange was the same as any other market maker's, and any other market maker could sign contracts to become a counterparty of last resort by joining the Backstop Liquidity Provider program.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by courgette on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:04AM (#33982403)
I did saw similar setup in real life. Not as blatant but the market maker argument was the reasoning of going red for a while.

Reconciliation was still happening every 24h tho.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by darkerside on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @07:19AM (#33982507)
Singh was the chief engineer for a major exchange. It's his job to know better than this.

If the chief engineer for NASDAQ put in a backdoor to allow a market maker unlimited margin, would you assume they just figured it was legit because someone said so?

He knows how markets work too well for a defense like that.

Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by lumost on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @10:43PM (#33979753)
This seems flaky at best. Either becoming an extreme lapse of judgment - or intentional ignorance. His position as a higher up makes claiming the former difficult.
Re:A software change allowed FTX to use client money by fredgrott on Wednesday December 14, 2022 @06:10AM (#33982093)
That does not fly with the restrictions of US based customers, which is both SDNY and SEC's point