Notch took orders of magnitude less time for orders of magnitude more money. I think they're safe.

Put on your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moishe_Postone hat and the time portion is especially key here.

I do not get your Moishe Postone reference either. What does it mean?

His most famous book, Time, Labor and Social Domination, is not the clearest writing to say the least, but really dumb basic idea is that the downside of work during capitalism are less "boss mean" than the rat race / treadmill of more hours, more deadlines etc.

Whatever you say about the Dwarf Fortress creators, one thing that is clear is that they hopped way the fuck off that treadmill. Money gave Notch a "rush" (pun very much intended!) but the Adam's brothers were clearly in no rush.

I think that means this success will not get to their heads. He who was never running won't trip.

Thank you for this very clear explanation!

What do you mean? I don't get the reference.

Because no one explained. Notch made Minecraft and at one point was making £300k a minute in sales. After a few years of very intense life changing profits he eventually sold Minecraft for £4B and turned into a bit of a weirdo largely blamed on his sudden rise in wealth.

If you read his blog you'd understand there was a lot of subtlety and complex relationships and emotions, but the gist is that.

> a bit of a weirdo

If anyone's wondering, here's a sample of what this actually means

- retweeted qanon and pizzagate conspiracies, once saying "Q is legit. Don't trust the media."

- called feminism a "social disease"

- tweeted "I'd rather be a fascist cunt than have a feminine dick"

- also tweeted "If you're against the concept of a #HeterosexualPrideDay, you're a complete fucking cunt and deserve to be shot"

Many of these were deleted after he made a deal with youtuber Game Maker's Toolkit (who I assume is lib?) to "drop the politics"

To me that's not weird, that is just politics. Lots of people are privately or publicly horrid and that isn't really noteworthy.

To me the weird thing is that he didn't seem to realize only kids were really worshiping the ground he walked upon and to everyone else he was just another rich dude. After the sale he moved to LA to throw parties in his lavish mansion but it seems nobody wants to hang out with him more than twice so instead he started lonelyposting from his ginormous empty granite rooms.

Nothing out of the normal from what I've heard from relatives of mine that I still get along fine with (other than the first one, don't know any Q people, though apparently my parents' nextdoor neighbor is one). Though worded a bit more strongly than I hear from relatives, but that's what Twitter does by encouraging short form snotty posts. If they were on Twitter I'm sure they'd be saying similar things.

You're stuck with your racist relatives, but we're not stuck with racist Notch.

This is pretty normal though. Also I wouldn't say they're racist. They'd strongly object to being called racist as well. And this is in a pretty liberal area too.

> This is pretty normal though.

It's not. Stop making excuses for them.

Thank you! What he's doing is a textbook example of normalizing racism.

> They'd strongly object to being called racist as well.

Every racist objects to being called a racist.

If they object to being called racist more strongly than they object to racism itself, then they're probably racist, especially if they tolerate and sound like racists like Notch or Trump.

And whether or not you want to acknowledge it (and most racists don't), racism is an extremely common thing.

Especially with people who normalize racism by calling racist behavior normal, and get along with racists without calling them out.

Just because you call it normal doesn't mean it's not racist, it means you're literally normalizing racism.

It's not rocket science folks, it's just racism.

It is not so black and white. A person may have been brought up racist, no fault of their own and tantamount to child abuse I would say. Your mindset would exclude any chance of re-education for them. At a wider scale it's also very simple to talk big like you are right now online. But as a hackernews regular I rather imagine you are most likely a middling tech worker, perhaps living pay cheque to pay cheque feeding a family (2.5 kids and a dog). You are, much like the average American politician, very likely to denouce racism and support grand action in private - but much less likely to jeopardise your family and livelihood to back the words up. Hopefully you can see the hypocrisy in asking anyone else to do so from behind the glow of your monitor.

Your reply and your others that were downvoted and flagged dead for violating the HN rules are also not in good faith and aren't worth a response. But I'm glad that this discussion of Notch's racism has caused you and others like you to crawl out of the woodwork to defend his hate speech and calls to violence, and identify yourselves as the kind of people you truly are. I believe you. Thank you for being so obvious.

Everyone objects to being called a racist. You clearly talk as someone who considers themselves not to be racist, if someone on the street called you racist you would no doubt object more strongly than an actual racist! But that would implicate you as an actual racist, by your standards. This kind of thinking is why the American education system (from my understanding, not being an American) used to include studying "The Crucible". Faulty witchhunt logic often applies to the person using it, and only leads to trouble. That being said, fuck Notch, but your mindset is almost as dangerous as his.

So “weirdo” means “not aligned with leftist politics”

If the above examples are what you label "not aligned with leftist politics" then sure

Not sure why you would define not being a shitty human being as "leftist" but I guess the strength of language is its malleability so have at it

yeah, man.. I got muscled out of The Left for wearing masks too early in the pandemic, but I don't feel like it's controversial to say that Pizzagate and QAnon are "weird"

Cool story bro. But don't blame other people for "muscling you out" of your principles. It's on you.

I'd still call myself a leftist. But like pretty much all rational people who've done any introspection at all: I'm now an alt right maniac because I'm willing to talk to people I disagree with and try to think things through from their perspective.

I masked up early since people wear masks in hospitals and people mask up in Asia when they're sick. That made me "anti-science"

I think free speech is actually important even if scumbags lie to people. I think that the government shouldn't have the ability to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't true from one day to the next, and they DEFINITELY shouldn't have this much soft power to shut down unwanted narratives through backchannels.

What's really funny about all this is that I can talk to my actual hard-right friends about this stuff, and they don't rage on me for being pro-trans or any other views they disagree about. We can talk about it, find the root of our disagreement, and then live in peace. The only Leftists I can get to that point with are others like myself who've been muscled out and branded dangerous alt-right lunatics.

I think being against feminism and proud to be heterosexual are perfectly acceptable, if controversial opinions. Being insulting about it is not.

Believing in well debunked conspiracy theories is your right, but doing so definitely puts you in the "weirdo" category.

Saying that feminism might be corrupted by grifters who do not actually seek equality between the genders would be controversial, but acceptable.

Saying that homosexual pride was important at the start, but now in most places gay people have the identical rights to straight people, and therefore gay pride is no more meaningful than straight pride would be controversial, but acceptable.

Missing either context by saying you're against feminism ("So you do NOT support equality between genders?") or that straight pride is the same as gay pride ("You do understand that 'pride' in this context is a rebellion against 'SHAME'. People are saying they refuse to be ASHAMED of being gay. Noone has ever told a straight person they should be ashamed of being straight") is not acceptable.

It is bigotry. There are left-wing bigots and right-wing bigots. And there are right wingers who are not bigots.

But there are definitely correlations and trends between bigotry and political beliefs...

We obviously have different definitions of "acceptable".

A few grifters do not cancel out all women's rights to equality.

Calling out racism when you see it, and when somebody shows you they're racist, as Notch unquestionably did, is acceptable.

Keeping your mouth shut and not saying anything isn't acceptable, and makes you a part of it.

Tolerating and normalizing racism is not acceptable.

And your claim that "gay people have the identical rights to straight people" is absolute mendacious bullshit and you know it, especially in light of the fact that so many people in the US are campaigning and bullying and legislating so strongly against it, and actually murdering gay people in their safe spaces.

It doesn't matter that they may technically finally have hard won and constantly embattled "identical rights", if they're dead.

I am sure you are fully aware of the numerous recent mass shootings targeting gay people, the thugs threatening drag shows, the terrorists shooting out power substations, and of the members of congress, former presidents, and presidential candidates who regularly incite that violence, so you definitely know you're lying about that.

So why do you lie and pretend to be ignorant, if you're not an active part of the problem?

Just remember: you're defending an unhinged billionaire Q-Anon promoting weirdo who publicly attacked and called a female game developer a "cunt", and people opposed to right wing neo-Nazi homophobic trolls "complete fucking cunts who deserve to be shot".

Notch was LITERALLY INCITING VIOLENCE, by any definition of the term, and you're defending him, after so many of those people he called "complete fucking cunts who deserve to be shot" were shot down in cold blood, just like he insisted.

Him saying that and you defending his hate speech is not just "weird", it's sociopathic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_pride

>Support for straight pride events is often based on religious objections to homosexuality.[16][32] Groups such as the White Aryan Resistance and Ku Klux Klan have also tried to oppose "gay pride" by stressing straight pride.[33]

[33] White Boys to Terrorist Men: Target Recruitment of Nazi Skinheads https://studysites.sagepub.com/martin3study/articles/Blazak....

https://thinkprogress.org/organizers-behind-boston-straight-...

>The organizers behind Boston’s Straight Pride Parade should concern you. Some of the organizers are close to neo-Nazis and other white supremacists.

You're arguing with the wrong person - you should reply to OP.

I completely agree with you. Notch is indefensible.

My argument was that there MIGHT be an acceptable way to have a conversation about what grifters are doing to feminism (without abandoning the whole concept)

Or there MIGHT be an acceptable way to have a conversation about whether gay pride should evolve as society evolves.

But not by saying you're against feminism, or by saying you're against gay pride without qualifications.

You can be not aligned with leftist politics without being racist and participating in GamerGate by calling female game designers "cunts".

Or are you admitting that right wing politics are racist and sexist by definition? You be you!

> Or are you admitting that right wing politics are racist and sexist by definition? You be you!

This is exactly what they're doing. The right loves to tell on themselves.

I long ago gave up on trying to assume good faith or reasonableness. It's much simpler to just listen to what they tell you about themselves and believe it.

Hunh. So if someone has a #killallmen hashtag I should take them at their word?

Just looking to see if consistency is expected or abhorred here.

Notch is the dude who built Minecraft and then sold it to Microsoft for a billion dollars.

I was just thinking that myself, and wrote about it 5 days ago! But I have a lot more faith in the Adams brothers than my misplaced faith in Notch, who was inspired by Dwarf Fortress to make Minecraft.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907092

DonHopkins 5 days ago | parent | context | favorite | on: I liberate the ending to Minecraft from Microsoft ...

Years ago when Minecraft was new, I used to really respect and admire and root for Markus Persson because of his work, but then he opened his mouth, showed the world who he really was, lost all my respect, and totally disgusted me. It would have been so easy for him to just keep his big mouth shut, count and spend all his money, and retain all the hard earned respect and admiration that so many people including myself had for him, but then we would have been delusionally admiring a truly terrible Q-Anon supporting, GamerGate promoting, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, racist bigot, who called video game developer and feminism supporter Zoë Quinn a "cunt".

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time." – Maya Angelou

Oh course he tried to walk back some of his worst tweets, but what kind of person tweets that kind of shit in the first place? I believe what he showed about himself the first time, not his pathetic attempt at damage control.

So I guess it's better that we all now know what kind of a horrible person Notch really is thanks to his own words, so we're not wasting our money, energy, and respect on somebody who certainly doesn't deserve it. Let him serve as an anti-hero for exposing other bigots who choose to carry his water and show everyone who they really are by defending him.

I'd much rather spend my money and admiration on wholesome deservingly beloved game developers like Tarn and Zach Adams, who've worked so hard and creatively on Dwarf Fortress, and are decent human beings who totally deserve to reap the benefits of their fine dedicated work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarn_Adams

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markus_Persson#Controversial_v...

Markus Persson: Controversial views

Persson has received criticism for political and social opinions he has expressed on social media since around 2017. Many of his comments have seen by others as misogynistic, racist, and homophobic.[52] He claimed feminism was a "social disease", and called video game developer and feminism supporter Zoë Quinn a "cunt".[53][54] He took offence to gay pride celebrations, asserting there should be heterosexual pride days and stating that opponents to his ideas "deserve to be shot".[54][55] After facing backlash, he deleted the tweets and rescinded his statements, writing "So yeah, it's about pride of daring to express, not about pride of being who you are. I get it now."[56] Persson said in social media that "It's okay to be white"[57] and that he believed privilege is a "made up metric".[58] He has promoted claims that people are fined for "using the wrong pronoun".[52] Persson has also faced criticism for tweeting in support of QAnon, stating that "Q is legit. Don't trust the media."[59]

In March 2019, a Minecraft update removed all mentions of Persson from the game's menu, though his name is still in the credits.[60] Microsoft did not explain this action, but its timing led multiple news outlets to conclude it was related to the controversies associated with him.[60][61] Persson was not invited to the game's tenth anniversary event later in 2019, with Microsoft saying that his views "do not reflect those of Microsoft or Mojang".[52][62]

[52] "Minecraft creator Notch unwelcome at 10th anniversary due to online conduct". Ars Technica. 29 April 2019. Retrieved 6 November 2022.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/04/online-conduct-leaves...

[53] Bonazzo, John (13 June 2017). "Minecraft Creator Tells Women on Twitter 'Act Like a Cunt, Get Called a Cunt'". Observer. Archived from the original on 19 August 2019. Retrieved 18 June 2019.

https://observer.com/2017/06/minecraft-gamergate-markus-pers...

[54] Kane, Vivian (29 April 2019). "Minecraft's Creator Excluded From the Game's 10th Anniversary Due to Racist, Sexist, Transphobic Comments". The Mary Sue. Archived from the original on 16 May 2019. Retrieved 18 June 2019.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190516071226/https://www.thema...

[55] "Minecraft creator Notch unwelcome at 10th anniversary due to online conduct". Ars Technica. 29 April 2019. Retrieved 9 April 2022.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/04/online-conduct-leaves...

[56] Morris, David Z. (2 July 2017). "Minecraft Creator Sparks Cries of Homophobia". Fortune. Time Inc. Archived from the original on 3 December 2017. Retrieved 3 December 2017.

http://fortune.com/2017/07/02/minecraft-markus-persson-homop...

[57] Crecente, Brian (29 April 2019). "'Minecraft' Creator Excluded From Anniversary Due to 'Comments and Opinions' (Exclusive)". Variety. Archived from the original on 17 June 2020. Retrieved 25 July 2019.

https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/minecraft-creator-exclu...

[58] "The Creator of 'Minecraft' Tweeted Some Dumb Stuff About Race". GQ. Archived from the original on 25 July 2019. Retrieved 25 July 2019.

https://www.gq.com/story/notch-whiteness-tweets

[59] "From Q-Anon to transphobia, the creator of 'Minecraft' has takes". Newsweek. 11 March 2019. Retrieved 17 June 2022.

https://www.newsweek.com/minecraft-notch-controversy-twitter...

[60] Thubron, Rob (28 March 2019). "Microsoft removes references to game creator Notch in latest Minecraft update". TechSpot. Archived from the original on 4 February 2020. Retrieved 31 March 2020.

https://www.techspot.com/news/79403-microsoft-removes-refere...

[61] Lanier, Liz (28 March 2019). "Some References to 'Minecraft' Creator Notch Removed From Game". Variety. Archived from the original on 7 June 2020. Retrieved 31 March 2020.

https://variety.com/2019/gaming/news/notch-removed-minecraft...

[62] Arif, Shabana (29 April 2019). "Minecraft creator Notch won't be included in the game's 10 year anniversary event". VG247. Archived from the original on 29 April 2019. Retrieved 29 April 2019.

https://www.vg247.com/2019/04/29/minecraft-creator-notch-abs...

Ten years ago (exactly, remarkably) Notch wrote about his father on his old blog.

I think it's a beautiful, sad, human piece of writing. It's hard to find online, now that his blog ("The Word of Notch") went away. Someone made a 500+ page PDF backup of his blog, here:

https://habrador.itch.io/the-word-of-notch

The post, titled "I love you, dad", is the second to last post.

Making beautiful things doesn't make up for saying horrible things. Still, every time I used to hear about the awful stuff Notch posted, I remembered how I felt about him when I read about him and his dad.

I just wish things didn't have to be so awful, for everyone.

Unnecessary tangent.