News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by hn_throwaway_99 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:15PM (#33936380)
The part about "Harvard is immune to eminent domain" is definitely apocryphal.

I'm quite positive the United States doesn't give legal credence to "dusty old letters from King George".

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by beambot on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:39PM (#33936566)
Actually, it's entirely possible. I have friends out in California who still have Spanish land grants that predate the US and California statehood. They have successfully prosecuted their rights (eg water) again & again.

For example, see the section about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo on this wiki page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by ghaff on Saturday December 10, 2022 @04:12PM (#33936844)
See also Dartmouth College v. Woodward argued for Dartmouth by none other but Daniel Webster.

Among other things Supreme court chief justice "Marshall concluded that Dartmouth’s [royal] charter constituted a contract and that New Hampshire had violated this contract in attempting to replace the original trustees." https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/729/dartmouth-c...

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by retrac on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:01PM (#33937329)
Yes, generally the laws in effect before a colony or territory became a US state remained the same after they became US states. Contracts signed before statehood remained valid after. Property deeds remained valid. The criminal laws remained in effect. And so on, at least until amended by the new state legislature. Doing anything else would just be chaos, really. Louisiana is another example; its legal system has a distinctly French character to this day.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:39PM (#33940158)
The treaty has not been fully followed, even according to the US government.

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-04-59

Here in NM, a significant number the original Spanish land grants were ignored and replaced by new grants to (generally) Anglo owners. Fortunately, some of them were sufficiently cogniscent of the paradox of colonialism overriding colonialism that the new grantees re-issued (smaller) grants back to the owners under Spanish or Mexican law.

Ironically, there were also some Spanish land grants that took so long to process, Mexico had already declared independence from Spain before the legal process was complete, and this left a number of them in a strange form of legal limbo at the time of the treaty.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by Spooky23 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:45PM (#33936619)
In some cases, we do. I worked for a farmer who won an eminent domain action on the basis of a Dutch deed covenant. There’s a lot of crusty old law that protected the rights of landowners and others whose title predates the state or nation. In my boss’s case, his title predated both the state and country.

It worked in negative ways too. The Dutch setup a feudal system, but the state limited the ability of the landowner to collect rent in the 19th century. (Baltimore has a system like this too) In this case, the landlords abandoned the title, but many homeowners were in a legal limbo where they didn’t have a clean title.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by bmitc on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:30PM (#33940092)
Are you sure about that? I did some research, and Harvard's rights are indeed written into Massachusetts' constitution:

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Constitution#chapterVSectionI

Chapter V, Section I, Article I:

> it is declared, that the President and Fellows of Harvard College,in their corporate capacity, and their successors in that capacity, their officers and servants, shall have, hold, use, exercise and enjoy, all the powers, authorities, rights, liberties, privileges, immunities and franchises, which they now have or are entitled to have, hold, use, exercise and enjoy: and the same are hereby ratified and confirmed unto them, the said president and fellows of Harvard College, and to their successors, and to their officers and servants, respectively, forever.

Chapter V, Section I, Article II:

> And whereas there have been at sundry times, by divers persons, gifts, grants, devises of houses, lands, tenements, goods, chattels, legacies and conveyances, heretofore made, either to Harvard College in Cambridge, in New England, or to the president and fellows of Harvard College, or to the said college, by some other description, under several charters successively: it is declared, that all the said gifts, grants, devises, legacies and conveyances, are hereby forever confirmed unto the president and fellows of Harvard College, and to their successors in the capacity aforesaid, according to the true intent and meaning of the donor or donors, grantor or grantors, devisor or devisors.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by ghaff on Saturday December 10, 2022 @04:22PM (#33936936)
Whether or not that particular claim is apocryphal or not, it's well established case law that dusty old royal charters from King George III very much have legal credence.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by indymike on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:41PM (#33936588)
The US did not reboot jurisprudence when it was established. We imported English common law.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by shagie on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:44PM (#33937812)
> We imported English common law.

In most places... which is your first point.

One of the science fiction authors that I've read has run in to this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Alec_Effinger

> Throughout his life, Effinger suffered from health problems. These resulted in enormous medical bills which he was unable to pay, resulting in a declaration of bankruptcy. Because Louisiana's system of law descends from the Napoleonic Code rather than English Common Law, the possibility existed that copyrights to Effinger's works and characters might revert to his creditors, in this case the hospital. However, no representative of the hospital showed up at the bankruptcy hearing, and Effinger regained the rights to all his intellectual property.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by dragonwriter on Saturday December 10, 2022 @10:51PM (#33939878)
There is something that seems at best underexplained in that narrative (which the Wikipedia article sources to the introduction to one of his works), since bankruptcy is handled by uniform federal laws, with state laws governing some exemptions, but copyrights not being generally exempt in most states (and the common law states not differing systematically from Louisiana on this point.)
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by shagie on Sunday December 11, 2022 @01:14AM (#33940597)
There's a fair bit around that that gets very deep into the "it's not simple".

https://www.louisiana.gov/about-louisiana/

> Early French and Spanish settlers influenced the legal system in Louisiana. Despite popular belief, it is incorrect to say that the Louisiana Civil Code is, or stems from, the Napoleonic Code. Although the developing Napoleonic Code influenced Louisiana law, the Napoleonic Code was not enacted until 1804, one year after the Louisiana Purchase. A main source of Louisiana jurisprudence may in fact be Spanish. The resulting system of "civil law" in the Louisiana does differ from the "common-law" systems in the other 49 states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Louisiana

> Law in the state of Louisiana is based on a more diverse set of sources than the laws of the other 49 states of the United States. Private law—that is, substantive law between private sector parties, principally contracts and torts—has a civil law character, based on French and Spanish codes and ultimately Roman law, with some common law influences.

https://www.lawinfo.com/resources/bankruptcy/louisiana/

> Federal bankruptcy laws changed in October of 2005 when the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act took effect six months after President Bush signed it into law. This new law requires consumers who file bankruptcy to receive credit counseling in the six months prior to their filing for debt relief. It also mandated their completion of a financial management instructional course.

(interesting - the laws changed in 2005 - which may have been something sufficiently different... and he died three years before that law was changed)

https://www.bloomlegal.com/blog/what-is-unique-about-louisia...

> The most notable difference in procedure comes in the sphere of trust and estates law, real estate law, and inheritance. In Louisiana, we call this Succession and Donations, where it’s Trust and Estates in the rest of the country. Much of the legality surrounding the way land and property is passed down is unique to Louisiana.

https://www.nola.com/news/article_efcb7e79-99e1-53df-8e74-6b...

> So, Louisiana and the rest of the United States reached a compromise: Louisiana could continue to follow its civil law practices for private law, which governs interactions between individuals like marriage and succession, and Louisiana would have to use common law akin to the rest of the United States for public law, like when a person goes to criminal court and is prosecuted by the state.

(bankruptcy and property would fall under the civil law at the time)

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by zopa on Saturday December 10, 2022 @04:06PM (#33936793)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartmouth_College_v._Woodwar...

Different Ivy League school, but established a precedent that states must respect preexisting charters.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by refurb on Saturday December 10, 2022 @09:23PM (#33939414)
The US absolutely respects agreements prior to land becoming territory of the United States. Of course, it all depends on the agreement, so I have no idea if the Harvard story is correct.

But a good example are the ranchos in California. They were land grants by the Mexican government when it was Mexican territory. When the US acquired California after the Mexican-American war, the agreement was all such land grants were deemed valid going forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranchos_of_California

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by PaulDavisThe1st on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:41PM (#33940163)
> The US absolutely respects agreements prior to land becoming territory of the United States

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo has not been fully followed, even according to the US government.

https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-04-59

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by refurb on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:59PM (#33940266)
Those claims are about how the original land grants were respected, not if they were respected. That may sound like mincing words, but it's an important distinction.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by PaulDavisThe1st on Sunday December 11, 2022 @12:21AM (#33940366)
From the GAO abstract:

> identifies and assesses concerns regarding acreage transferred voluntarily or involuntarily after the confirmation procedures were completed

"Involuntary transfer" is not what most people would describe as "respecting existing land grants".

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by refurb on Sunday December 11, 2022 @01:16AM (#33940607)
Read the details, it's because proof of land grants wasn't exactly perfect. Lots of claims but sometimes no concrete proof. The article calls out instances of fraud.

I wouldn't say a few exceptions where challenges were faced mean the US didn't respect land grants. The paper itself says the vast majority has no issues.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by rayiner on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:02PM (#33937346)
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by NordSteve on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:39PM (#33937737)
Not at all uncommon. Allow me to direct you to Article XIII of the Minnesota Constitution, which states:

Sec. 3. University of Minnesota. All the rights, immunities, franchises and endowments heretofore granted or conferred upon the University of Minnesota are perpetuated unto the university.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/constitution/#article_13

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by JackFr on Saturday December 10, 2022 @08:17PM (#33938934)
Pretty sure all that means was that the land grant of the territorial legislature would still be in effect after the ratification of the Constitution (1851 vs 1857.)

Interestingly enough, Section 4 immediately following invests the state with eminent domain power.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by NordSteve on Sunday December 11, 2022 @06:28PM (#33948813)
Untrue. The University of Minnesota has broad powers to manage its own affairs without interference from the State and local government.

This excellent article by the legal research team describes the scope of the University's powers and cites key legal cases that have helped define it. https://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/ss/clssumca.pdf

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by JackFr on Saturday December 10, 2022 @08:05PM (#33938857)
My father was a real estate appraiser for the New York State Department of Transportation whose job was to appraise land taken under eminent domain.

There are plenty of parcels of land whose title is literally a pre-Revolution Crown Grant. That matters not a whit with respect to eminent domain. (OK - maybe not plenty but at least two.)

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by bmitc on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:41PM (#33936594)
Someone else mentioned the story they heard was from George Washington, which would carry more weight I suppose. But it also implies it’s all a game of telephone.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by happyopossum on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:28PM (#33937613)
> which would carry more weight I suppose.

That would carry less weight - George Washington never had monarchical or dictatorial powers to grant such an exemption.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by JoeAltmaier on Saturday December 10, 2022 @04:09PM (#33936818)
Perhaps they do respect the constitution of Massachusetts?
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by temp12192021 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:20PM (#33936430)
Depends on the judges involved.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by indymike on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:42PM (#33936595)
Has nothing to do with judges, and the fact the US adopted English common law and evolved it's judiciary from there.
Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by zopa on Saturday December 10, 2022 @04:02PM (#33936763)
To be a little pedantic, individual states maintained systems based on English common law, rather than the US as a whole adopting it. There’s famously no such thing as Federal common law.

This matters in Louisiana, which has a civil and not a common law system, dating from the French period.

Re:Yale’s 367-year-old water bond still pays interest (2015) by Retric on Saturday December 10, 2022 @03:55PM (#33936697)
In theory sure, in practice the legal system is run by people who somewhat regularly make technically incorrect decisions.