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Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by fnordpiglet on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:15PM (#33903247)
I agree. The efficiencies are too stark. Globalization is equivalent to specialization and division of labor. You can’t hope it away.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by sremani on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:20PM (#33903277)
Security is not free. who is under-writing global maritime security and what do they get in return.. that is the bigger question.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by remarkEon on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:58PM (#33903571)
>who is under-writing global maritime security and what do they get in return

The United States. The conventional wisdom is that what the US gets in return is outsized influence in the internal politics of basically every country within that protection sphere, plus the petro-dollar. I don't totally agree with the second part, but that's what you'd find in an "explainer" from Vox or the pages of The Economist.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by swader999 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:08PM (#33903653)
It's also helped to slow nuclear proliferation.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by remarkEon on Thursday December 08, 2022 @02:17AM (#33905152)
This, I will grant.

The United States, despite inventing the thing and using it first, has done more to get rid of nukes than anyone.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by fnordpiglet on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:59PM (#33903586)
Everyone. They get the benefits of trade. When piracy happens every nation will participate in ending it as is necessary to protect trade. Why would you think otherwise?
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Retric on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:29PM (#33903795)
History shows a subset of countries are all to happy to support piracy for various reasons.

It’s essentially a prisoner’s dilemma where individual countries are better off defecting.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by ahkurtz on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:53PM (#33903945)
Prisoner's dilemma is solved and not a dilemma with repeat rounds (aka trust and relationships). Like the real world. This fits well with the fact that cooperation works, and is why civilization exists.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Retric on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:11PM (#33904047)
Yet piracy has been around for thousands of years.

The thing is people and countries don’t all benefit equally from buying into the existing system. It’s the same basic reason people continue to run scams and steal stuff on land etc.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by literalAardvark on Thursday December 08, 2022 @12:02PM (#33910228)
So has trade. Piracy isn't a blockade.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Retric on Thursday December 08, 2022 @12:37PM (#33910679)
Piracy has been used as a form of blockade.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by robertlagrant on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:02PM (#33903997)
Because it's not everyone. It's (mostly) the US.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by joshbaptiste on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:08PM (#33903651)
yup without the US trade route protection formalized during Bretton Woods, modern trade could not happen as snoothly as it has and the US is slowly backing out of that position
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by cthalupa on Thursday December 08, 2022 @01:11AM (#33904763)
The tired Zeihan position that has been the same song and dance since his days at stratfor and still as wrong now as it was decades ago. He's also predicted that China would collapse a dozen times now, with timelines attached, and every time that timeline passes and China still stands he just moves the goalposts. He got Ukraine right, but it wasn't exactly a bold prediction and it follows the same Nostradamus method of throwing a bunch of stuff at the wall and hoping some of it sticks.

The US has not been the majority player in policing pirates in a long time and piracy is at an all time low - China and Europe handle the majority of the piracy actions around Africa today, the largest source of modern piracy. Even if the US were to withdraw, and it's just Europe and Asia trading with each other, what navy is going to magic into existence to threaten those trade routes? The 5th fleet is in theory always around to back things up, but even if you look at CTF-151 the USA hasn't had the comm since 2009, and basically all of the anti-piracy actions today are small potatoes and easily handled by coalition members.

Yes, the US navy is the best in the world. Yes, without it, there is less ability to protect these trade routes. But if the people that are doing the remaining trade are the people with the next 20 biggest navies, where in the world is the threat going to come from?

If globalization ends it's not going to be because the US navy took their ball and went home, because you have to go really far down the list of naval might to find people who wouldn't want to still be trading with each other.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by uoaei on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:21PM (#33903283)
Efficiencies like moving kilotons of mass across the Pacific every day to save a few bucks?
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Manuel_D on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:26PM (#33903319)
Actually yes: container ships are extremely efficient modes of transportation. As are trains. The most carbon-intensive parts of logistics are often the first and last segment when goods are transported via roads.

Container ships produce a lot of emissions, but they also move a lot of cargo. On a CO2 per kilogram per mile basis, containers ships vastly beat out automobiles.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by midoridensha on Thursday December 08, 2022 @12:32AM (#33904561)
Actually, gigantic container ships beat everything else, by a large margin, including trains. It's cheaper to ship stuff to California from China by ship than by train from the east coast states.

Automobiles are the worst and least efficient mode of transportation, and should be severely curtailed.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Manuel_D on Thursday December 08, 2022 @12:52AM (#33904678)
Many train networks are electrified outside of north America. That's a different story especially in countries with lower carbon intensity of electricity.

But yes, on the whole it's correct that common assumption that the distance freight travels equates to the overall carbon intensity of transit is incorrect.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by uoaei on Thursday December 08, 2022 @08:30PM (#33916238)
I'm not sure what is meant by "beat" but if you're just talking about costs, then this is an irrelevant point. Rather, the effect of trade agreements is so substantial that cost per tonne shipped by no means reflects an equilibrium under free market conditions.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:30PM (#33903799)
Why would the alternative to container ships be…automobiles? If you’re manufacturing locally, you’d want to move large volumes of goods by rail or where available, river transport, both of which produce a lot less CO2 than container ships.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Manuel_D on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:45PM (#33903903)
The point is the local transportation accounts for the significant majority of carbon emissions from freight transportation. Moving goods 3000 miles by ship and another 100 miles by road is not much more emissions than moving goods only 100 miles by road.

A more effective change would be to make transportation emit less greenhouse gases. Get hydrogen powered container ships and electric vehicles. This would reduce greenhouse gases significantly more, and wouldn't involve destroying the global economy.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by throwaway2037 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:52PM (#33904324)
I like this comment. I do believe the global logistics industry will adapt to a low carbon future, rather than dismantle itself (and the world economy). In short, it is a death sentence for their business. And no business wants to go bankrupt, so they will adapt -- at least: try to.

Do you think ammonia or hydrogen is more likely to be used for ships? At this time, I am leaning towards ammonia because storage and infrastructure is simpler.

Funny side note: While writing this post, I was doing a bunch of Google searches about ammonia, hydrogen, and blue vs green. Every single search returned a single ad from Saudi Aramco touting their blue ammonia and hydrogen capabilities. Incredibly depressing. The non-petro states need to hurry up and cover the center 80% of Australia with solar panels (Chilean Andes and North Africa too) to produce whatever green industrial inputs we need from "thin air". Maybe we can run a bunch of carbon sequestration machines too. In parallel, we can drive up carbon taxes.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Manuel_D on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:59PM (#33904371)
My perspective is that Ammonia is a storage mechanism for hydrogen. The question is more like cryogenic vs compressed air vs chemical (such as ammonia, or hydrogen peroxide). A bigger question is production: solar, hydro, and wind are probably cheapest for electrolysis. Thermochemical production may make sense for nuclear or geothermal based power. Maybe Iceland becomes a big gas station for transatlantic shipping, based on geothermal energy?
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by throwaway2037 on Tuesday December 13, 2022 @08:35AM (#33968600)
I like your idea about Iceland. They are already a major aluminium smelting hub due to extremely cheap thermal energy.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by midoridensha on Thursday December 08, 2022 @12:34AM (#33904578)
Forget container ships: if you want to reduce greenhouse gases, you need to target trucks, trains, and cars first, then probably aviation after that. Container ships are ridiculously low-emission in terms of CO2/tonne.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by midoridensha on Thursday December 08, 2022 @12:33AM (#33904568)
No, they don't. Container ships produce less CO2 per tonne than trains, by a large margin.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Tempest1981 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:52PM (#33903520)
Which type(s) of automobiles do they beat?
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Manuel_D on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:29PM (#33903798)
Road transportation emits about a hundred times more for the same mass and distance. I'm sure they're referring to ICE vehicles not electric, but the former still accounts for the vast majority of automobile freight transport.

https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/freight-transportation

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by uoaei on Thursday December 08, 2022 @08:40PM (#33916314)
According to this link, rail is more efficient per tonne-kilometer than ships are, which contradicts many others in these comments claiming the opposite without supporting citations.

Per the source above, rail is most efficient at 128k, then ships at 97.3k, then road at 10.8k, where units are in tonne-kilometers shipped per tonne of CO2 emitted.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by Panzer04 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:01PM (#33903594)
Everything? It's not close, trucks are very inefficient compared to trains and boats.
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by dhx on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @10:48PM (#33903920)
Moving raw materials across the ocean could also be better overall for the environment.

If Country A can produce 100Mt of raw material by digging up 10000ha of already-destroyed farmland, and Country B would need to clear 100000ha of pristine untouched forest for the same amount of raw material extraction, wouldn't it be better to source from Country A? At least up to some point where the environmental impact of oil used to ship 100Mt of material from Country A is worse than clearing 100000ha of pristine untouched forest.

Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by HDThoreaun on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:45PM (#33903470)
container ships are cheap and efficient
Re:TSMC founder Morris Chang says globalization and free tra... by bloodyplonker22 on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @09:29PM (#33903339)
kilotons of mass = economies of scale = a lot more than a few bucks