For me, the only metric is: can people leave from there? People cannot leave North Korea, ergo it sucks.

OP is suggesting that the source is repeatedly coming out with either comically or disturbingly exaggerated stories from NK. It's a pretty shitty place to live, but you don't need to unquestioningly swallow every wild story you've heard or read about the place on that grounds that "it sucks"

I consider exit visas to be not a good sign, confiscation of passports to be another (the US IRS), and a new tool of the UK that is extrajudicially sanctioning their own citizens (see Graham Phillips) for yet another. Not to say these countries are close to equal but they are more alike than we might realize and increasingly more so in worrying ways.

‘The safeguards of liberty have frequently been forged in controversies involving not very nice people’ - US Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter

There are several North Koreans that leaves to work or study in Russia and China, their neighbour countries.

Yes, they can do that but cannot stay, the collateral being their family in NK.

A lot of people in the US can't leave either. Not because their government won't let them out, but because no other government would let them in.

Are we seriously comparing emigration possibilities in the North Korea and the US here?

> >source: Radio Free Asia, Liberty Times

You make a great point: this is propoganda.

> It's another poor third world nation, not unlike many of the ones currently on the western side of things

But the "not unlike" comment strikes me as lacking evidence, given the confirmed differences between the DPRK and other poor nation. At least when comparing the content of their refugee testimonials.

Note, this is not a disagreement nor an agreement with your comment, only an observation of what appears to be a hollow spot in the reasoning.

If you believe this, I really suggest you read this whole thing:

https://reliefweb.int/attachments/838602f4-8043-3da8-85bd-12...

"Over the past six years, the Special Rapporteur has examined and raised concerns about the coercive system of governance that deprives the fundamental freedoms of people in the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. This includes arbitrary arrest and detention, torture and ill-treatment, restrictions on freedom of expression, religion and thought, access to information, freedom of movement and the practice of forced labour."

"Draconian measures have further strengthened the State’s control over the population, such as the policy of shooting individuals who attempt to enter or leave the country and the Law on the Elimination of Reactionary Thought and Culture, enacted in December 2020, containing grossly disproportionate punishments, including the death penalty for accessing information, particularly of foreign content."

I doubt you can find any named source in NK

OK...maybe Kim Jong-un himself? At least we can consider him as an authoritative source.

North Korea has had thousands of foreign workers, mostly aid workers, in its borders, and businessmen from neutral countries that have not signed up to sanctions are given privileged access to the country. They are more reliable sources on how the country operates than any "unnamed source".

The big name I can think of is Felix Abt, who wrote about life in Pyongyang. Bad, but much safer than most of the other comparable capitals he did business in. He's biased in favour of ending sanctions and sanitizes some of what he said, but "A Capitalist in North Korea" confirms some of the negative assumptions about the country while criticising the more extreme claims.

People here are quick to say these news are Western propaganda, but believe all those foreigners can be trusted. Why the same skepticism isn’t applied?

I never heard of Felix Abt, what are the reasons he should be trusted? It’s well known that foreigners aren’t allowed to move around freely, even if he has the best intention we can only say what he described are true only for the circles he interact with.

You're not going to get reports about executions taking place on airfields in Hyesan from people who are stuck in Pyongyang.

This also show some double standards and bias in social networks. Twitter, Facebook, and several others always mark Chinese media as "news financed (or controlled) by the Chinese government", and the same is true for any media financed entirely or in part by governments not aligned with the west. But what about Radio Free Asia? It is a source of propaganda financed by US government. It is not a credible source, it always publish accusations with no proofs against countries seen as enemies. However, no social media ever put the label "this media is financed/controlled entirely or in part by the US government" in Radio Free Asia accounts.

You left out my favorite: "Kim Jong In executes girlfriend for starring in porno".

Followed by all the most trusted mainstream media outlets repeating the rumor uncritically.

Followed by a rash of "O M G she's still alive????" when, shockingly, appears in the public eye, unmurdered:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kim-jongun-s-e...

No shit she's still alive, geniuses. You all trusted a single source known for making up fantastical bullshit on a fantastical story.

That appears to be a different source, so of course it should be left off a list of things that RFA has reported. (If indeed RFA reported those things.)

there are quite a lot of accounts from people who have left

Were they allowed to leave?

for some reason, I do believe the part about patriotic names. In early USSR there used to be all kinds of weird names. E.g. Vladlen (a name after the glorious Vladimir Lenin)

> I do believe the part about patriotic names

And the editorial board that crafts that news also knows it, so they are counting on it for that to have an extra pull that way as well

It is common for the general public to name their kids after what's in vogue it happens in all societies and the degree to which they are compelled to do so varies ofc, ergo all the little girls named Elsa that can be seen nowdays

Why is this NK apologist post getting upvoted? Anyone who thinks dictatorships like this are fine should move there and become citizens.

Pointing out obvious propaganda is being an "apologist" and supports dictatorships?

> It's not like North Korea is paradise. It's certainly not. It's another poor third world nation, not unlike many of the ones currently on the western side of things where the same sort of life happens.

There's pointing out propaganda (which I agree Radio Free Asia is), and there's boiling down a country well-documented as a known human rights violator[1] to "just another poor third world nation"

[1] https://reliefweb.int/attachments/838602f4-8043-3da8-85bd-12...

No; the apology is in the last paragraph where the poster attempts to suggest that the DPRK is not really any worse than many other countries in the rest of the world.

> Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article or post to complain about in the thread. Find something interesting to respond to instead.

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

Maybe it’s fine for you to be ok with lying but it’s generally frowned upon.

Sorry, who is lying? Being supportive of any dictator (including Xi) is anti-human.

NK and other dictatorial regimes suck. Western democracies that attempt to lean into authoritarianism also suck. We need to trend more toward free, open and democratic societies globally. Suggesting that dictatorships are fine because western governments occasionally do similar things isn't helpful - it is a purely apologist take. Of course, that is just my opinion, if you like dictatorships, please state it plainly.

If you support lying and propaganda, please state it plainly

The problem with extremist takes like yours, is they remove any nuance, to the point of covering for other equally "anti-human" acts that eventually pop up.

Take the falun gong cult, or Scientology of the east for instance.

They were protected and given special status in New York and now spend a large amount of their time spreading nonsense propaganda about not just China but supporting extremists right wing parties globally.

No one in the US even bothered to cover them until they were banned for trying to spend 20millon on pro-trump ads in 2020.

And guess what they own most of the leading YouTube channels about China and are the gateway to anyone curious about how China functions.

I'll know, since I was watching one of their channels since 2010 and only found how how much fake made up stuff they made up only much later.

Same thing happened with how ISIS was formed due to the sheer ignorance of the decision makers.

ignorance breeds stupidity.

If you like dictatorial regimes, please state it plainly.

Go spread your thinly veiled propaganda elsewhere.

Even the mods notice how blatantly bullshit the post was and flagged it.

What is my thinly veiled propaganda? I think NK sucks (not the people but the government naturally).

When you start protecting lies, you don't deserve any respect.

Just because no one likes the regime doesn't mean you go around attacking people for pointing out falsehoods about it.

It will only make it harder for people to find the truth and help others inside it.

If you support lying and propaganda, please state it plainly

Do you want named source in North Korea? The very fact that nobody can step forward to confirm or deny, or someone can go there to verify this information, show how evil NK is.

As for the list you cited as bad reports, maybe include links? But again, unless you know with certainty they are fake, how can you be so sure? As nobody collaborated for or against them.

> won’t hear a word of

Which Western friendly country would you like to highlight that we haven’t heard about? Which North Korea-like policies of those countries that you think nobody has talked about?

It’s ironic that you complain about fake news but hide behind a throwaway account, throwing around whataboutism with weasel words.

You will hear more than a word of any foreign entity when the US has started plans to invade them while their enemies will be called stunning and brave... eg Taliban, Kurds, vietnamese, Ukrainians....

Irony of calling north Koreans brainwashed

Replacing US with NK, the comment will never be allowed to post in NK. They don't have an Internet though.

Also your comment is a counter-example for the US's brainwash, if that holds.

The irony of you commenting on a brainwashed article proves my point. in NK you can publish nothing, in US almost everything published is deceptive. See my point?

The Kurds and Ukrainians are the US’s enemies?

I meant they are enemies of states that the US wants to attack. Once they are used up, US will throw them out to the dogs. Like how US greenlighted turkey to attack kurds this week.

Radio Free Asia is literally a State Department propaganda front and should be treated as such.

No it’s not “literally” a State Department front.

It’s a news agency funded by the US government via the US Agency for Global Media, which is an independent agency of the US government. The Secretary of State used to be on the board of directors by rule but that changed in 2017.

I trust the New York Times reporting on the subject.

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...

Yes it literally is.

The on paper org structure matters zero percent in areas of intelligence and diplomacy.

HN is a wild place where there are plenty of credulous Americans who will swear blind that the BBC is propaganda along the same lines as KCNA is in North Korea and Pravda was in the USSR ... while declaring that Radio Free Asia is just an independent news agency.

The point isn’t that it’s an unbiased news source. The point is you don’t have to make up some shadowy CIA/State Dept. story about it.

It’s right there in the public mission of the governmental agency that actually runs the RFA. You can see the budget, strategy directives etc.

The RFA is unapologetically an arm of the US government. Judge it for what it is without dramatizing it.

Well this is awkward…

“One of the C.I.A.'s first major ventures was broadcasting, Although long suspected, it was reported definitively only a few years ago that until 1971 the agency supported both Radio Free Europe, which continues, with private financing, to broadcast to the nations of Eastern Europe, and Radio Liberty, which is beamed at the Soviet Union itself.

The C.I.A.'s participation in those operations was shielded from public view by two front groups, the Free Europe Committee and the American Committee for Liberation, both of which also engaged in a variety of lesser‐known propaganda operations.“

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/12/26/archives/worldwide-propag...

Correct, RFE was originally a CIA operation. Though VOA was a WW2 operation by the war office and precedes it. The blowback created by the CIAs involvement and other CIA reforms in the 70s caused those operations to be moved into their own organizations.

They were consolidated in the 90s and reorged a few years ago. Again, this is literally on their website!

So when you say they are “literally” a front for the state department you are wrong. I suspect you know that, given it’s public ally documented, so the only reason to say it is to cast aspersions on them as sources rather than evaluating the information provided.

Say they are US governmental propaganda! That’s absolutely true. Just don’t add drama as if they aren’t completely open about this.

What drama? I pointed out that they are State/CIA fronts for propaganda, and that would be taken into account when reading the news.

This isn't drama, it's context.

As for this line "So when you say they are “literally” a front for the state department you are wrong."

Their connections to State/CIA is well documented. This is hardly drama, it's context that would be helpful for people to know when judging information presented. This is basic critical thinking 101 stuff.

I feel like you are arguing that we should ignore the history, years of deception, and trust their website.. Why?

You said they are “literally” a front for the state department and that’s just not accurate. Even your own coverage points out that they were once connected to the CIA but that relationship had been severed long ago (when RFA was shuttered in the 50s, the new one is a 90s era creation) and there aren’t claims about the state department.

The State department is not the CIA, like the usagm the CIA is an independent agency of the US government, not part of the State department.

I’m just looking for you to be accurate. A statement like “RFA was a CIA backed operation at one time and it still is a US propaganda outlet” would be fine. Instead, your now edited reply to me said I “didn’t know what I was talking about” when I pointed out your inaccuracy.

I can't say more, NDAs and all that.

I encourage you to read up on the topic of interactions between the DoS and the Intel Community. Fascinating reading.

There's no drama, but people like the simple explanations of the world. USA: good, North Korea: bad. USA propaganda: justified, special, exceptional. non-US propaganda: suspect, biased, evil. So being confronted with the idea that they're simply a little bit blinkered (not totally brainwashed, just a little ignorant) and that history and current events involves more complexity and nuance causes some people a bit of discomfort.

North Korea is bad.