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Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by mjbeswick on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:04AM (#33830518)
Rail companies are getting the blame here, but the real problem is that paid leave isn't a statutory employment right protected by law. Here in the UK full time employees are entitled to 28 day paid annual leave, although I have work for companies which offer more, while pay is seperate.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by forgetfreeman on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:16AM (#33830633)
And yet you'd have a really tough time finding a white collar gig where paid leave wasn't a bog-standard part of the package. So nah, rail companies are getting caught out because they are absolutely fucking around with this.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by smileysteve on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:46AM (#33831083)
Glares in "startup" "untracked pto" where it's white collar and paid leave isn't guaranteed but for the power of the worker.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by coffeebeqn on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:46AM (#33832051)
I take at least a month of unlimited. Many people just assume the world will end if they take a week off
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by forgetfreeman on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:37PM (#33834739)
laughs in SV dweebs chasing IPO payouts are a rounding error compared to the rest of the white collar environment Anyone silly enough to sign up for that treadmill is welcome to whatever comes their way, good or bad.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by willyt on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:40AM (#33831935)
Yes but now they can't change because the first one to do this becomes uncompetitive, the only way to introduce this in a fair way that otherwise maintains market competition is to introduce a rule that applies to all the companies in the market that says you must offer paid sick leave.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by LadyCailin on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:51AM (#33833005)
Apparently according to this article, it’s a monopoly, so no, they would t be less competitive.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by forgetfreeman on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:36PM (#33834725)
Do they become uncompetitive or do they suddenly attract all the top talent in their industry because of their new compensation offerings?
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by FateOfNations on Sunday December 04, 2022 @12:49AM (#33851023)
All of the Class 1 railroads are involved in the same bargaining process with the unions. Whatever change to sick day practices happens will apply to all of them.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by bestcoder69 on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:30AM (#33830835)
Another possible causal factor is just that labor is weak in the US, and thus is unable to win sick days from their employers AND is unable to convince congress to pass universal sick days either. If that’s the case (I’m biased to say yes) these rail workers really need to strike. Voting for blues obviously isn’t cutting it.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by mjbeswick on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:39AM (#33830958)
It's seem like such a far reaching issue that I'm surprised it hasn't triggered a general strike.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by sillystuff on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:49AM (#33832090)
A general strike is illegal in the United States. The US government, under the control of wealthy capitalists, has ensured that capital's interests are protected in law to the detriment of the workers who actually create value.

> Among the practices prohibited by the Taft–Hartley act are jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns. The amendments also allowed states to enact right-to-work laws banning union shops.

Labor in the US is weak by design.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by notch656a on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:30AM (#33832687)
I would support eliminating both the anti-general strike and anti-collusion laws. It seems unfair to ban collusion by capital but not by labor.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by dpkirchner on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:03PM (#33833210)
> A general strike is illegal in the United States.

What're they going to do, imprison the masses? Illegal doesn't mean much without realistic consequences.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by sillystuff on Wednesday December 07, 2022 @11:11PM (#33904042)
There are a lot of potential consequences. A look at US labor history shows that mass arrests are possible (one of the first uses of aerial bombing was used to put down a miners' strike at Blair Mountain in the US. So, much worse than mass arrests are possible).

But, usually the ruling class + capitalist class targeted those they identified as labor leaders (often with bogus charges-- even without evidence, these often ended in convictions. With some of these convictions resulting in the executions of innocent people).

But, just firing all workers who participate as was done in the 1980s when air traffic controllers attempted a strike would likely be sufficient to scare the working class back into compliance.

Or, for a larger action, you could punish the entire working class by sharply raising interest rates and inducing a recession. With the resulting large supply of unemployed/underemployed workers, labor will be too weak to make demands.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by TheCoelacanth on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:06PM (#33833252)
That seems like an obvious First Amendment violation given the economic activity = speech precedent from Citizen's United.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by lotsofpulp on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:47AM (#33831101)
> Voting for blues obviously isn’t cutting it.

But also only “blue” led states have minimum required paid sick laws, so at least they are trying. Given the option between red and blue, it seems obvious which one to support if you support paid leave for all.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by p0pcult on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:58AM (#33831292)
>Voting for blues obviously isn’t cutting it.

Agree, and furthermore, I'd argue that the blue "Third Way"[1] ushered in by Bill Clinton in the US is what hugely screwed labor, and 20 years later leads to the election of DJT.

Why can't Biden/congress make the agreement that the unions want and ratify that? There are multiple ways to avoid the strike; I don't understand why this has to be on ownership's terms. Long term, (or at least in 2024, which is about as long term as we get in American politics anymore) this is going to let team Red claim to be the pro-worker team.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by luddit3 on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:33AM (#33831826)
This is like blaming the abused wife for not helping her husband to stop abusing her.

Party of voting against the majority self interests will continue to vote against the majority's self interests.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by KptMarchewa on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:30AM (#33831785)
> Long term, (or at least in 2024, which is about as long term as we get in American politics anymore) this is going to let team Red claim to be the pro-worker team.

but they are those who are voting those proposals down.

>Why can't Biden/congress make the agreement that the unions want and ratify that?

because they need 60 votes in senate and obviously don't have them.

I just don't understand how you can rationally reconcile party A voting against those proposals, blaming party B for not passing it, and claiming that party A is for those proposals. It's some weird doublethink.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by p0pcult on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:28AM (#33832662)
Biden doesn't have to sign it in its broken form.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by dpkirchner on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:07PM (#33833273)
> I just don't understand how you can rationally reconcile party A voting against those proposals, blaming party B for not passing it, and claiming that party A is for those proposals. It's some weird doublethink.

It's exactly the same right-wing doublethink that spurs budget cuts and justifies the cuts by pointing out how ineffective government is. Anyone promulgating such notions is either a sucker or dishonest.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by Throwawayaerlei on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:03PM (#33833202)
"this is going to let team Red claim to be the pro-worker team"

Nobody sane will believe them; while I believe the start of this was when the New Left captured "Team Blue" in the 1970s and blue collar workers famously became part of the Reagan coalition (and worked with him against the Soviet Union, particularly in Poland), the GOP establishment hates this part of its base.

Repeating part of another comment which in general is a repeat of all of this:

A great deal of Trump's otherwise inexplicable popularity is that he's a 1970s NYC Democrat just like Reagan in the 1980s was a self-described FDR Democrat and he doesn't hate these people. Doesn't care or do much for them, but this is a palpable difference from the GOPe.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by lamontcg on Friday December 02, 2022 @03:13PM (#33836223)
> Nobody sane will believe them

Those blue collar Reagan Democrats that you're talking about are the ones that believe that. Same people more or less.

That is why Trump did well, he appeared to them to be a pro-worker Republican in the 2016 campaign and they voted for him.

While anti-communism may have been more impactful in the 70s, the Democrats being solid pro-big-business for the past 30 years has convinced a lot of people to vote Republican since they'll get low taxes and the freedom to do whatever they want personally. You may claim they're not sane or they're stupid, but that doesn't win their votes, and they're not interested in long-winded explanations of what Democrats are providing for them at the margins while yelling at them that they're racist/sexist/homophobic/etc.

If the Democrats were more pro-labor across the board and the message was simply "here is universal health care / child care / college and strong labor regulations for everyone" then there would be a real blue wave.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by zopa on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:06AM (#33831403)
The proposal to add seven sick days passed the House and got a majority in the Senate, mostly (though not quite exclusively) ‘blues’. It’s not who unions are voting for that’s the problem, it’s the filibuster.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by dbpatterson on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:33AM (#33831839)
The "blues" created the legislation & forced the workers to accept a shitty contract with no sick days. They could easily have refused to vote for it and let the strike happen w/o real sick days.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by HDThoreaun on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:11AM (#33832417)
> They could easily have refused to vote for it and let the strike happen w/o real sick days.

No they could not. That would lead to economic catastrophe worse than march/april 2020. Dems would get swept next election and the workers wouldn't even win because dems would be forced to pass this exact law within a week of the strike starting. The government can't let 100,000 unrelated people lose their jobs, and they really can't let grocery stores run out of stuff or coal plants run out of coal causing blackouts.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by Throwawayaerlei on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:57AM (#33833084)
Do they not have the option of forcing the railroads to give in on the sick leave issue? Did not "Team Blue" as in the Biden administration arrange this set of trade offs in the first place in the agreement which some of the most affected (screwed) workers are rejecting?
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by HDThoreaun on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:57AM (#33833101)
The bill that would give the workers 7 sick days only got 52 votes in the senate. Needs 60 to overcome the filibuster
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by Throwawayaerlei on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:05PM (#33833235)
How convenient Team Pelosi split the issues into two bills. This result is to no credit of either party; as I've been commenting elsewhere, both hate this segment of the population.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by HDThoreaun on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:16PM (#33833410)
it wouldn't have passed if it was just one bill. Republicans have no problem allowing a strike since democrats will take the blame for the economic fallout.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by Throwawayaerlei on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:24PM (#33833554)
You know this how? And somehow the House couldn't have first tried a bill with both, then split them out?
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by ddingus on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:54PM (#33834033)
Team Blue had the complete authority to render the filibuster moot. We the people granted them more than enough power to do what we want done.

Fact is they hid behind the parliamentarian, insisted on bipartisan legislation as a priority and then proceeded to cede the power granted to make that excuse a reality today.

Personally, I reject it all and know damn well this could all play out differently and it doesn't because ordinary people are just not a priority.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by Throwawayaerlei on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:16PM (#33834401)
Team Blue could in theory end the filibuster today if they dragged in the five MIA Senate Democrats who have not been voting on these measures and got Harris to break the tie.

As you say, they have their reasons for keeping it.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by mjhay on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:14AM (#33832460)
That would require courage and long-term thinking. As of now, this problem has just been punted, while the industry continues to hemorrhage workers
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by pseudo0 on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:09PM (#33834293)
If the Democrats had wanted the paid sick days to pass, they would have bundled it with the bill forcing the railway workers to accept the contract, making it all or nothing. Splitting it off was just a way of killing it without taking responsibility.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by outside1234 on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:27AM (#33831734)
Well, all of the blues voted yes, so its hard to say that red is the solution for these workers
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by t-3 on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:52AM (#33832139)
The blues also put forward the paid sick leave as a separate bill rather than putting them together. That's no coincidence, but a political strategy.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by AnimalMuppet on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:18PM (#33833453)
If I understand correctly, the blues also had some hand in negotiating the one-sick-day contract that the union members rejected. Biden at least claimed some credit for that, IIRC.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by blululu on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:55AM (#33832179)
This would be a more reasonable critique if the Democrats had not been the minority party in the US Senate from 2012-2020. For the last 2 years they only have 51-50 tie breaking lead in the Senate which give a very slim margin to get anything done. I'm sure the Democrats could do more but it is a bit unfair to blame them for the actions/inactions of their (frequently more powerful) rivals.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by TOGoS on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:43AM (#33832862)
The Democrats' failure to run good campaigns, always keeping congress teetering between the two corporate parties, is part of their culpability. If they all ran on, for example, abolishing health insurance companies, and won (because the majority of the population actually wants universal health care), and got elected, suddenly they'd be in the awkward position of having to do something that their big donors don't want and not having Republican control of congress as an excuse. The Democratic party is controlled opposition. They allow a sprinkling of 'progressives' in the party because it makes for a better show.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by stephen_g on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:07AM (#33831421)
Yeah, coming from a country with strong labour laws, it's mind boggling that this is legal in the US. I think the realist view has to be that the market ain't ever going to fix it, companies are always going to try to get away with as much as they can, and the people have to force the Government to bring in minimum standards.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by robertlagrant on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:33AM (#33831824)
There's no market for natural monopolies.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by ALittleLight on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:27AM (#33832646)
The market is perfectly capable of fixing the problem. The employees should quit, strike, or slowdown work until their employers give them what they want.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by retrac on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:35PM (#33833724)
> should quit, strike, or slowdown work

I'm not sure how it goes down in the USA, but here in Canada, federal transport workers are de facto prohibited from striking or other job action. Every time they go on strike, the next day the government passes legislation declaring the strike illegal because they are essential workers and a disruption poses a threat to infrastructure of national interest, and a new binding labour contract is imposed on the workers. The only legal option is to quit. (But you can't even encourage your coworkers to quit, too. That amounts to illegal labour agitation.) Air traffic control, port workers, railway workers, etc. get this treatment. They have no right to strike, in practice.

Edit: a quick Google search suggests it's same situation in the USA:

> The House has passed a resolution 290-137 that would force unions to accept a tentative agreement reached earlier this year between railroad managers and their workers and make an imminent strike illegal.

https://www.npr.org/2022/11/30/1139876084/congress-house-rai...

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by ddingus on Friday December 02, 2022 @12:52PM (#33833996)
"illegal"

Given the level of corruption we live with today, that term packs an increasingly weak punch as labor continues to see completely unacceptable work arrangements.

What will eventually happen is they will strike anyway. It plays out in courts and a lot of people get harmed.

That came corruption will be the source of blame placed on labor.

It will eventually be on all of us to reject that proposition, stand up for these people and insist on reasonable and prudent labor arrangements. Yes, this means shit costs a bit more. So what?

The clowns abusing their labor could always give a little margin back too. Think they will? Nope. Not willingly. Not one cent.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by inferiorhuman on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:02AM (#33841099)
If the annual tax forms are any indication railroad workers in the US have all sorts of separate rules and whatnot. In the US the right to strike is something that can be bargained in most industries which is why, in the Bay Area, BART workers can and have struck while Muni workers resort to "wildcat strikes". Muni workers bargained away their right to strike in exchange for something I've since forgotten. As far as port workers, they are not prohibited from work action. The ILWU (the dominant West Coast longshoreman union) has a loooooooong history of work action to support various political causes from anti-war to police brutality. Before the sanctions kicked in ILWU refused to unload cargo from Russian ships in solidarity with Ukraine.

Realistically the rail workers almost certainly don't need to strike to cause pain. They can likely slow things down dramatically by following rules and regs to the letter. Perhaps we'll start to see infrastructure sabotaged. Maybe dockworkers will refuse to handle rail cargo. Maybe Teamsters will refuse to do last mile for rail cargo. Who knows.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by maverwa on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:13PM (#33834345)
> The employees should quit, strike, or slowdown work

That assumes a situation where workers are able to do these things. Sure, in theory everyone could quit, but then they would need another way to earn money.

If employers know that their employees cannot afford to quit or risk losing their job, the whole "the market will fix it" theory falls flat, since there is no market.

Not sure how if this is the case for railroad workers.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by ALittleLight on Friday December 02, 2022 @03:45PM (#33836632)
Or the workers could slowdown if they can't afford to quit. E.g. the workers could say that train cars are going to be limited to X in length and a sympathetic worker would just detach any cars past X. So long as the workers had enough solidarity to pull off doing this anonymously - or similar acts of resistance, I don't see how this would fail to solve the problem.

The workers could decide to stop doing precision train scheduling (or whatever it was called). They could force their employer to give them concessions. If you're saying the workers can't afford to quit or resist then you're saying they have to accept whatever they are given.

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by inferiorhuman on Saturday December 03, 2022 @01:06AM (#33841110)

  Yeah, coming from a country with strong labour laws, it's mind boggling that this is legal in the US.
As an American I'm not surprised, but I am disappointed. Certainly Biden looks like a fucking jackass. Currently the Zodiac Killer is bemoaning Biden's anti-worker sentiment. Obviously Cruz is wholly incapable of doing anything with a modicum of integrity but if the republicans run with this through the 2024 election cycle and they get someone with savvy on the ticket (like good ol' governor death sentence) things could get dicey for the democrats. Legal or not it sure seems like the democrats are trying real hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by biztos on Saturday December 03, 2022 @09:01AM (#33843520)
I’m also American and I have no idea what you mean about the Zodiac Killer[0].

Is that a nickname for some politician you don’t like, or is an actual serial killer complaining about the president and it’s relevant because… I guess because we weren’t expecting to hear from him?

Help an expat out here!

[0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by krapp on Saturday December 03, 2022 @09:04AM (#33843551)
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by Workaccount2 on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:13AM (#33831515)
The rail workers have 4? 5? weeks of paid leave already. The issue at hand is "sick days" i.e. days off on short or no notice.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by tomrod on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:16AM (#33831574)
The right systems term for this is system slack. There isn't enough system slack built into the PSR models to account for real life needs.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by thatfrenchguy on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:43AM (#33831991)
Yes, which are clearly important ones: you don’t want someone with an infectious disease to come to work because otherwise they couldn’t pay their mortgage.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by orwin on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:09AM (#33832373)
They don't have weekends. They have 90 days off, while the average worker have 104, without paid leave.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by kvandy on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:26AM (#33831711)
I live on the east coast of the US and have only been to the UK twice, but I was blown away at the efficiency and relative cleanliness of the London and surrounding area rail systems.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by SV_BubbleTime on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:43AM (#33831979)
Lots of things change when your country is an island the size of Mississippi.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by thfuran on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:59AM (#33832241)
It gets more expensive to import the materials to make railways?
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by ransom1538 on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:38AM (#33831898)
For context: UK software developers are paid 50% less than US developers. I would rather keep my money.
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by coffeebeqn on Friday December 02, 2022 @10:49AM (#33832085)
Software developers also get all those benefits. Whenever people talk about how terrible working in the US is- almost none of that applies to software. You get plenty of time off, sick days are a non issue, work remote if you don’t feel like going in, health care insurance is free/cheap and good, etc
Re:Why America’s Railroads Refuse to Give Their Workers Paid... by notch656a on Friday December 02, 2022 @11:02AM (#33832283)
What? I had to work for a decade until I had anything close to the benefits offered by default in EU or UK, and even then I had to take a lower paying position to work for a company that offered decent work/life balance.

Even still, I think I had 2 days off when my child was born before I ran out of paid "sick" days and had to go to work.