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Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by woodruffw on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:09AM (#33760815)
These things are not incompatible. And you'd be incorrect to think that I doubt the value delivered by the DoD.

My point is a very simple one: the DoD is as large as it is because the US has a cultural aversion to accepting welfare. We can't make it obvious that we want to build a large, well-educated, and financially stable middle class by dumping money onto it, so we build it up by dumping money into the DoD instead and ensuring that just about every (genuinely innovative!) facet of American industry gets a piece of the pie.

When the DoD is built into the lifeblood of your middle class like this, it is culturally impossible to audit it, because auditing it would reveal the truth so many Americans find embarrassing or politically repugnant: that their livelihoods come from government-driven funding intended to give them decent lives, not the invisible hand of the market.

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by imwillofficial on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:17AM (#33760843)
You’re making a lot of interesting assumptions based on nothing I can see.

It would be fascinating to hear more about where you get these ideas from.

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by s5300 on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:25AM (#33760876)
Probably from growing up in one of said areas that obviously majorly benefit.

What they’re saying is very much true, I’m curious of your upbringing & knowledge of the topic if you really think they’re wrong

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by imwillofficial on Monday November 28, 2022 @12:39AM (#33770173)
You couldn’t be further off base.
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by woodruffw on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:44AM (#33760963)
I'm happy to try and walk through my assumptions (although maybe not at this very moment, since it's late here). If you list out the ones that you think I'm making, I'll try my best to substantiate them.
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by reissbaker on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:21AM (#33761866)
Your assumption is that " the DoD is really just a $800B jobs program," because people are too embarrassed to accept welfare. I'm similarly interested to see evidence backing that up. Another specific claim, for example:

We can't make it obvious that we want to build a large, well-educated, and financially stable middle class by dumping money onto it, so we build it up by dumping money into the DoD instead

FWIW, the DoD employs 1.3MM active duty service members, 750k civilians, and 800k National Guard and Reserve service members [1]. That's about 3MM people, generously rounding up. If you consider the surrounding defense industry, that's about another 800k jobs [3], so let's super-generously round up to 4MM. Considering that there are 207MM working age people in the U.S. [2], I'd be surprised if there was broad support for the DoD primarily on the basis of the number of jobs it provides or as a welfare alternative. That's $800k a year per job created! Seems fairly inefficient as a job creation scheme given the median salary in the U.S. is about $54k a year [4].

And compared to the 4MM jobs in defense, in 2019 roughly 59MM Americans were the recipients of some sort of welfare program [5].

1: https://trumpadministration.archives.performance.gov/defense...

2: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LFWA64TTUSM647S

3: https://www.clearedconnections.com/security-clearance-news/s...

4: https://www.thebalancemoney.com/average-salary-information-f....

5: https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/publication/99674/...

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by Throw10987 on Sunday November 27, 2022 @05:43AM (#33761982)
Veterans Affairs is also a big Chunk of change that also goes on in perpetuity. 412k employees and 10+ million on benefits

Depending on how you count, defense industry could be 3.5 mil employees.

https://siteselection.com/issues/2012/sep/sas-military-econo....

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by Throw10987 on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:01AM (#33761294)
War is a racket - Smedley Butler Major General US Marine Corps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket#:~:text=War%....
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by imwillofficial on Sunday November 27, 2022 @09:47AM (#33763257)
Awesome quote, but war being a money making scheme does not make it a jobs program.
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by thehappypm on Sunday November 27, 2022 @07:57AM (#33762667)
Reddit oozes with ideas like this
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by Jarwain on Sunday November 27, 2022 @01:53AM (#33761007)
I think this is a fascinating perspective, or at least one I haven't heard before. I can't say I have a lot of experience with the military though.

Although now that I think about it, that's what ROTC is right? They pay for your education, and pay you to gain experience using that education on Defense, then when your obligation is met you can keep going or do your own thing with a patriotism-boosted resume. It's a win-win

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by nerdponx on Sunday November 27, 2022 @02:25AM (#33761156)
This perspective is also brought up somewhat frequently when discussing NASA.
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by pcl on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:20AM (#33761371)
I assume woodruffw is referring more broadly to what used to be called the military-industrial complex, in addition to direct military staffing.

The gist of the idea is that the Department of Defense is a (the?) major funder of all sorts of industry in the US, typically in the form of contracts for products and services.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military–industrial_complex

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by hackernewds on Sunday November 27, 2022 @03:31AM (#33761423)
You're vastly overestimating the reach and impact of the ROTC program though
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by bluepizza on Sunday November 27, 2022 @04:21AM (#33761622)
Maybe, maybe not. Nobody knows. Not even the military, as per the article.
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by tbihl on Sunday November 27, 2022 @07:34AM (#33762539)
The article doesn't mention ROTC, and none of its few links that I opened mentioned ROTC either.

Your hand waving pessimism seems clearly unwarranted in this case. You think scholarships are just getting fired off with no one knowing who, where, or when?

At a decent guess for upper bound size, I see an estimate of 56% overall AD officers coming from ROTC. 2018 DoD demographics report puts total AD O-1 population at 28000, which should be a two year rank, so cut it in half for your new officers per year of 14000. Add 10% for people failing out, and you get about 8600 officers per year in ROTC, or a total of 34000 since it's a four year program.

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by Jarwain on Monday November 28, 2022 @05:00AM (#33771675)
I meant it more like ROTC was an example of one such program, of which I'm sure there are many whether directly like that or indirectly through companies.

Of course, using companies as a medium for propagating welfare has its own problems

Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by joxel on Sunday November 27, 2022 @06:43AM (#33762274)
The first parts make sense, your third paragraph is the tinfoil part. Assuming it’s failing an audit because it’s a jobs program is dumb as hell. There are more concrete reasons for the failure and I can tell you, as a DoD employee, it’s mostly incompetence and extremely overworked people.
Re:The Pentagon fails its fifth audit in a row by throwawaylinux on Sunday November 27, 2022 @07:06AM (#33762413)
> My point is a very simple one: the DoD is as large as it is because the US has a cultural aversion to accepting welfare.

What do you base this idea on? Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_social_we... puts per-capita and per-GDP welfare spending high into the list of developed countries,

> We can't make it obvious that we want to build a large, well-educated, and financially stable middle class by dumping money onto it,

More than is already dumped in by the vast welfare programs? Isn't government welfare expenditure greater than the entire defense budget?

> so we build it up by dumping money into the DoD instead and ensuring that just about every (genuinely innovative!) facet of American industry gets a piece of the pie.

> When the DoD is built into the lifeblood of your middle class like this, it is culturally impossible to audit it, because auditing it would reveal the truth so many Americans find embarrassing or politically repugnant: that their livelihoods come from government-driven funding intended to give them decent lives, not the invisible hand of the market.

How so? What kind of thing could an audit say that would cause the population to act in a way the ruling class or the DoD would consider undesirable? And what kind of action are you imagining?