Most people in the US work retail and many people in retail hold these opinions. They don’t hate themselves they hate the companies. That really is a bonkers opinion to try and pass off a status quo.
Let me try to convince you without defending the morality of the shoplifter or declaring corporations evil.
1. On the totem pole of crimes, petty shoplifting (without violence) is pretty close to the bottom when it comes to harm done the public. Jaywalking and smoking weed are lower.
2. These corporations that are being robbed already build shrinkage into their budgets. $300k of baby food is nothing to Walmart, a rounding error, and I doubt you can even see it in their bottom line. Even a smaller shop is not going to go out of business if someone walks out with all their toothpaste. It’s not analogous to stealing from an individual.
3. There are a limited number of police and I’d rather them be out there deterring violent crime than protecting the inventory of companies. When every rapist, murderer, white collar fraudster, and drunk driver is behind bars, and the police have nothing left to do, then sure, go bust those dastardly deodorant thieves.
This is a shortsighted take. This is as stupid as the corporations buying "cyber insurance" not realizing the cases are going up and that prevention and processes are needed. Then comes next year their premiums shoot up. Who would have thought it?!
Yes they "build shrinkage" for a forecasted number. If that number goes up and you get people swiping large amounts of products that number becomes meaningless. Then people wonder why did the store close or why a deodorant there costs $10 and is locked behind the counter
"Rite Aid, a pharmacy, closed a branch in Hell’s Kitchen in February after losing $200,000 worth of stuff last winter. And last week Target, a big retailer, reported that a rise in “shrink” (to use the industry jargon) had reduced its gross profit margin by $400m so far this year. The National Retail Federation says inventory loss, largely driven by theft, cost retailers a record $95bn last year."
It seems that $300k is several orders of magnitude off.
The harm to the public is when the stores find it unprofitable to exist in certain neighborhoods, which makes the neighborhoods even worse off. If the stores don't close, then prices have to rise to pay for the shrinkage, which the public has to pay for.
The cause in the increase is possibly an increase in poverty, or increase in wealth disparity?
> The cause in the increase is possibly an increase in poverty, or increase in wealth disparity?
I don't understand your question. Businesses have to have a return on their investment, or they go out of business. Shrinkage is a cost, so the price on the goods has to be raised to compensate.
Profit = Revenue - CostThe cost of shrinkage doesn’t factor into the price a business can charge. You don’t decide “I will buy X for $1 and sell it for $3”, you go “I can sell X for $3, where’s the cheapest I can buy it and does it make sense”
Now if you have a competitor next door selling X for $2.50 you will struggle to sell for $3, even if your rent or your supplier is higher
> if you have a competitor next door selling X for $2.50 you will struggle to sell for $3
Right, but your competitor next door is also suffering from shrinkage.
There's no way that shrinkage does not impact prices. Having the government run it won't help, either, as even if the government doesn't raise prices, the money will come out of your pocket anyway as taxes or inflation.
It’s expensive to minimize opportunities for the public to steal. Basic speed bumps preventing employees (who can steal more extensively) are less expensive and tend to be the focus.
Employee theft is always a problem, too, but whether it is worse than shrinkage or not is kind of irrelevant - it's still going to cost the business money which will mean that they'll raise prices or go under.
Employee theft can and does cause businesses to fail.
“Though shalt not steal” - Ten Commandments
“If a man has stolen goods from a temple, or house, he shall be put to death; and he that has received the stolen property from him shall be put to death.” - Code of Hammurabi
Private property is the foundation of civilization and pretending theft doesn’t matter undermines the basis of our world. All theft is wrong.
> “If you go into your neighbor’s vineyard, you may eat your fill of grapes, as many as you wish, but you shall not put any in your bag. 25 If you go into your neighbor’s standing grain, you may pluck the ears with your hand, but you shall not put a sickle to your neighbor’s standing grain.
You sleep easier when you don't know what happens to the people who won't receive the shipment a robbed grain merchant cannot pay for.
I might agree that all theft is wrong, but - as Proudhon aptly put it: La propriété, c'est le vol !
It's micro-managing every aspect of their lives to the same degree modern laws do - everything from a basic criminal code (Ten Commandments) over food safety laws (e.g. the ban for Jews and Muslims to eat pork) and employment regulation (work-free Sabbath) to providing answers to specific legal questions (inheritance, paying damages for livestock or raped women) and prescribing religious rituals. Even how to properly wage war was written down there... all of that was stuff the old tribes learned the hard way or decided upon and documented. For the Quran, a good example for that is the love of Prophet Muhammad on cats - the tribes learned that cats keep grain storages free from pests!
The problem is that over the millennia, the original context of these rules being tribally discussed and agreed-upon laws or some of these being the documentation of dispute resolutions got lost, and dogmatic / religious interpretations took favor, leading to entrenchment of rules that no longer made any sense (e.g. the mentioned pork ban or ridiculous interpretations of the work-free Sabbath). Additionally, some of the contents got lost or modified in translation - the best example is the "72 virgins" that await a Muslim martyr in heaven, which may very well have rather meant "vine grapes" [1]. FWIW, the Christian "New Testament" can also be seen as a reform-oriented amendment of the Torah.
Religious texts make way more sense when viewing them as "this is the collection of hundreds or thousands of years of tribal knowledge, order and jurisprudence", which is (IMO as an atheist) the only way these texts should be interpreted as. And yet, it still makes sense to also see the part of the rules and regulations that haven't gotten outdated as a foundation of how even our modern societies should look like (e.g. parts of the Ten Commandments, Jesus' teachings on how to view and help the poor and discriminated).
[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/04/opinion/martyrs-virgins-a...
A constitution is what a ruling class formalizes as foundational rules of the state. Society is mostly made up of the subjects of states.
This is perhaps more of a gray area these days - as most states are official democracies and have elections and such - but I would argue it is still essentially the case. But regardless of the present - this was certainly the case in more ancient times, where some well-armed and well-connected person or family declared itself to be the rulers. The majority of the population were simply conquered, lorded over, by such kingdoms; and whatever codex of rules was put down in writing (if at all) was not even known to them, let alone constrained to agree with their mores and customs.
About the (Jewish) bible specifically - the legislative part of it is a collection of different, and partly contradictory texts from different periods in the history of ancient Judea and the holy land, that was put in writing only much later. Most subjects of the Judean kings were not even that committed to Yahweh as a god. Naturally, such decrees and commandments were not written to be entirely divorced and contradictory to surrounding society, but they were first and foremost impositions in the interest of the rulers, not representation of the views of the ruled.
PS - From my (admittedly partial) familiarity with devout muslims, I very much doubt people going on a martyrdom (istish'haad) missions here in Palestine expect to get virgins after they die, nothing of the sort. There isn't a "piety and modesty now, promiscuity and debauchery after death" kind of a perception. Again, AFAIK. I can't access the NYT link, there's a paywall.
Doesn't this just mean that it is priced in? So thiefs are stealing from paying customers.
Shoplifting results in shops closing down in poorer areas or raising prices. This is quite bad for the poor.
People getting away with shoplifting and seeing others get away with it makes them feel they are not in a law abiding environment and makes them far more willing to break other laws and do things like deal drugs, beat up/kill their enemies and take the law into their own hands. A look at the murder rate in poor areas is suggestive.
Are people being murdered or attacked more frequently during retail theft in the last few years? Has the amount of violence in retail increased significantly enough for someone to change their career?
"I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy."
Where do you see this?
The reason I'm asking is because the level of crime people think is happening vs actual doesn't always line up, especially when it can be used as a political tool. For example;
https://www.thewrap.com/fox-news-violent-crime-coverage-elec...
Now I think we need more stats and it needs to include more news networks, it's still something that could explain how you feel
What are the good reasons that led to and allows this?
One is harm to capitalism, property and profit, one is harm to neighbours and fellow humans,.
Which one is worse, knowing you can't solve it all?
Well... it's not that weird. The big chain stores like Walmart ruthlessly exploit their workers to the point of them being forced to apply for food stamps [1], while the owner class makes literally a dozen billions of dollars a year in net profits [2]. Additionally, Walmart is infamous for killing off small businesses around them [3]. So, I don't have much sympathy at all for these corporations and Walmart in particular.
With ever more and more people being unable to make a honest living - over half the US has less than 1000$ in savings [4] - it's no surprise that shoplifting for survival is on the rise and at least somewhat accepted in society.
Unfortunately, small stores get caught up in the crossfire as they can't afford to bear the rising cost of shoplifting.
We need better wages for the 99% and higher taxes for the 1% so that we can get away from forcing people to steal to survive.
[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/walmart-and-mcdonalds-among-...
[2] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/net-in...
[3] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-09-14/radiating...
[4] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
I really don't think these people are choosing between stealing and starving.
From my German POV this is an absolute insanity.
[1] https://www.insider.com/us-states-with-the-highest-number-of...
[2] https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/20/us/pennsylvania-school-lu...
Happened before in history. See the Russian Revolution and the creation of the Soviet Union. Widespread moral justification for theft of private property on class-based "social justice" arguments. It's even happening right here in this HN thread, people justifying stealing.
Think of shoplifting as "inefficient redistribution".
So we can agree people's time is stolen from them, this is wrong. The part that has never made sense to me is why this means stealing as a whole something that society should encourage?
If someone is abused by their parents we would agree they suffered injustice, like people who had their wages skimmed by their employer. We would never tell someone that was abused by their parents it's now okay to abuse their own children, so why would we tell someone who's been stolen from that it's now okay for them to loot bodegas?
I sometimes can't tell if I'm being gaslighted, or if people really do look at the world in such broad strokes. When I see my local owner, Sol, have his shop trashed and stuck up by a couple 19yos, I certainly wasn't thinking about how they're probably hardworking minimum wage workers and this is just an 'inefficient redistribution' of wealth which is rightfully theirs. Some people are just dishonorable thieves, there doesn't have to be more to it than that.
It's absolutely not media sensationalism, I've seen people walk into CVS, Target, bodegas, etc. with a bag and clear entire shelves in full sight of other shoppers. They know nobody wants to end up on TikTok accused of committing a hate crime, so they let them leave.
The cops outside, understanding the motivations of our DA Alvin Bragg, generally don't chase as they similarly realize even if they catch them, they'll be out the next day.
It's frustrating to me when people who don't live in NYC act as if they understand the problem or worse, gaslight civilians and tell them it's just "media sensationalism".
If I had to give one reason for the trend, it is that it has come become apparent that the risk:reward for stealing:persecution has tipped in the favor of stealing, and every day more people in the city decide to take part. Blaming Amazon or 'the media' is almost insulting to the shopkeepers who've had their livelihoods ruined from this selfishness.
Honestly, it seems like that moment in the Batman movies after the Batman goes into exile and Gotham goes down the toilet. And for some reason, these don't seem to be as prevalent in Boston either, so it's definitely not a "those damned liberals" issue.
At some point after the 2008 financial crisis there were some protests in London (allegedly by black block type anarchists but they were only an element). Some vandalism occurred, bank windows got smashed, other shops were targeted and some stuff got looted. Fairly usual stuff. A meeting I was in the next day about something unrelated I listened to two people get into quite a rant about the "mindless destruction" and how much all that damage would cost. Not to mention the severe punishment that anyone involved should face (hard labour, flogging, etc). And yes, I did have to be "that guy" and point out that even if they had the same protest every week for a year it probably wouldn't compare to the cost of the crisis (a very large part of which seemed to be avoidable). That wasn't intended to justify or encourage smashing windows - it's just asking people to put things in perspective.
The problem is (as with many topics) if you only/mainly hang around progressive people (or read things from that perspective) things can seem unhinged because in that limited space the only crime they ever talk about is white collar crime or corporate crime (or white supremacist crime I guess). Those opinions are meant as a reply to mainstream society, not intended as a position statement on crime.
The same things happens with foreign policy. It's useful to be reminded of the crimes of "our side" when analysing the behaviour of Russia/China/whoever. But if you only ever talk about the crimes of the West without ever criticising Russia/China AND you communicate only with likeminded people you can end up sounding very strange to anyone listening to you who isn't in your weird bubble.
The most remote, homestead-y places will have unattended "stores" where you leave out goods and people come by and leave money in the basket and take what you have. The least remote, most-managed places have security locks on items over $15. It is impossible to run a friendly, neighborhood-run store when any new customer is a potential thief. When theft goes uncontrolled, owners begin to look at their customers with suspicion. Those who don't like theft leave for more peaceful places and are replaced by owners who will tolerate theft with a big insurance policy and force.
It is continually astonishing to me that so many "community-focused" people don't realize that unilateral actions of harm inside the community (theft, assault, etc.) have ripple effects that harm the entire community. If you grow up in a region where store owners believe you might be a thief unless they personally know you and you have to constantly worry about protecting what's yours, and I grow up in an area where I'm trusted and respected by business owners and I leave my door unlocked when I go to town, how is equity meaningfully achievable between us?
What do you think about how this relates to communities shifting almost entirely to the internet?
Bowling Alone is a popular book about the decline of "social capital" (community), which is a fair intro to the topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
IMHO, technological advances begets social upheaval and accelerating inequity are the root causes for the popular usual suspects (broadcast media, cars and suburbia, social media).
Orthogonally, since Trumpism, I've been more open minded towards explanations rooted in reactionary populism (revanchism) and white racial animus.
I do think it's interesting that the Old Internet was more spontaneous, unorganized, and high-trust than the New Internet. It would be effortless to find counterexamples to this claim (back in the day I got death threats, now we have moderators for that!) but the fact remains that any new prosperous sector of the New Internet is immediately invaded by advertisers, authoritarian moderation teams, and the Eternal September effect, and the way that people present themselves on the New Internet is far more curated than in the past.
There's a street in northern Baltimore where you don't actually go into any of the shops. Instead, you walk into a foyer-mantrap hybrid made of bulletproof glass. There, the retail employees ask you what you want, you tell them, pay, and then they go get it for you. Experiencing it for the first time was bizarre. Not an area I felt safe parking my car.
Baltimore is so weird, sometimes feels like living in Rio de Janeiro but only the bad part of Rio. None of the music scene, night life or beaches of Rio, but all of the inequality and violence.
Or e.g. in Seattle in an otherwise-normal store they have alcohol under lock and key and you have to get an employer to give it to you - a hybrid model.
I’ve also noticed a weird tendency to downplay theft lately, either through projecting a theoretical moral justification on to the shoplifter or by insinuating that retail stores are evil corporations and therefore deserve no sympathy.
Knowing some people who work in retail, the impact of rampant theft (organized or random) is really quite unsettling on the people who have to be around it. Retail store policies are very much about not interfering with the thieves, but it’s quite upsetting when you realize you’re in an environment where the law doesn’t really mean anything and consequences basically don’t exist for breaking the law. The few people I know in retail (including retail management) are looking to get out ASAP because it just feels so vaguely unsafe and, worse yet, large swaths of the public seem to thing the thieves are the good guys and the retail employees are the bad ones because they’re associated with a corporation.