Tesla makes real products you can buy and take apart. It’s hard to hide fakery the way you can with financial companies.

Teslas have very little different from other electric cars, when it comes exclusively to hardware. The difference is the software, which, no, you can’t take apart, and given that “FSD will be here any day” for many years now (and also kills people), I’m not convinced there isn’t fuckery happening there either.

That's not true at all. Tesla's have objectively better hardware than any other available EV in terms of performance, efficiency, and range.

That's objectively not true anymore. A lot of cars released in the last 2 years have similar or better stats.

Well go ahead, provide the best car for comparison out of your list of "a lot of cars".

Then we can objectively compare it to the closest Tesla model to it.

That is if that car is even being manufactured at any scale at all...

When the debate is lost slander becomes the tool of the loser...

Where is the slander, and where is the car to compare?

I see you went to my profile to find something to say to me, but nothing to expand on your opinion so we can objectively compare better cars as you suggested originally.

And yes that's why I put that quote in my profile, people will go after the person when they don't want to defend their statements, like you did.

Curious if you have much success with being aggressive and condescending in conversations? I wouldn't even bother discussing anything with you but I saw there are enough answers in the parent comment... so you can read and flamebait there :0)

You're still just talking about me and not about a car to compare to a Tesla.

> A lot of cars released in the last 2 years have similar or better stats. reply

Please provide an example of one of the cars you are talking about.

Na... I am good bro. :o) I would have liked to discuss the topic but certainly not with you.

The Consumer Reports 2022 automobile reliability survey ranks Tesla 19th out of 24 auto manufacturers.

Note that what you said does not contradict what the person you replied to said.

Tesla does not have objectively better hardware in terms of performance (Porsche), efficiency (GM), or range (Lucid).

It does have the objectively worst built cars at every price point they sell.

BYD sold more cars in H122 than Tesla. Elon Stan detected.

Zeekr, a Chinese brand goes 621 miles, or 1,000 kilometers, on a single charge. More than the models that now lead the U.S. market in battery range: the Lucid Air, with 520 miles, and the Tesla Model S, with 405 miles.

Tesla (to their credit!) took advantage of an unserved opportunity, including heavy government subsidization, to build electric cars. And they fucking did it.

However, I strongly doubt they will succeed going forward. They are in the midst of a wave of competition from Porsche, Mercedes, GM, Ford, VW, Kia, etc; across all segments of the market. They have failed to deliver on self-driving, and have a 0% chance of success moving forward (as admitted by pulling their lidar sensors out). They still aren't particularly good at fit/finish/quality of their cars.

And finally, Tesla (imo) desperately needs a ceo who thinks about little more than threading the needle on the narrow success path moving forward. Instead, they have someone busy breaking Twitter.

So, is Tesla objectively successful? I'd say no, because I don't think it's clear they will be a live company in 10 years. I think a huge amount of their success came from being the only company that sold a non-shitty electric car, and now that competitive umbrella is gone, they're likely to fail.

Of course anything can happen in the long run, but right now it sells products that millions of people love and is a public company that employs 1000s of people — that's already a pretty high bar to me!

It’s probably safe to assume the truth is mundane. Tesla stock is definitely overvalued (at least it was a few months ago. I haven’t checked recently) and the Tesla brand will likely just become a staple car brand (ala Honda, GM, Ford, Toyota, etc).

That’s not really comparable. Tesla make tangible products that are readily sold and actively used all over the world. Their success has been so great that it pushed other companies to move into the EV market. Tesla are known to make premature promises sure, but they do eventually deliver on those promises.

Full self driving is only the most prominent example of many unfulfilled promises.

Err they just rolled it out to the whole of North America

“Our goal is, and I feel pretty good about this goal, that we’ll be able to do a demonstration drive of full autonomy all the way from LA to New York, from home in LA to let’s say dropping you off in Time Square in New York, and then having the car go park itself, by the end of next year [2017],” he said on a press call today. “Without the need for a single touch, including the charger.”

https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/19/musk-targeting-coast-to-co...

Would you say this promise has been fulfilled?

No, it's taken much longer than that. But Musk is far closer to this goal than anyone else.

Other solutions rely on geo-fenced known areas, LIDAR sensors (which will never understand the whole picture e.g. coloured traffic lights), and non-generalised AI. What Tesla is shooting for is much more ambitious, and much more likely to succeed in my opinion.

Why be pedantic about forward-looking announcements, rather than celebrating the incredible things Tesla AI has acheived so far (and continues to acheive)? The cars can now navigate competently through city streets. That was sci-fi just a few years ago.

Taken!=Taking

Also, it's not being pedantic when you point out that someone is over 5 years behind what they promised...

I can't deny the cheerleading factor, for sure. But we also know there's a LOT of hot air in this company. The question is, does that hot air get replaced with quality, or does the thing deflate? Time will tell.

Tesla has 68% of the electric car market, 20% of the luxury market, and 2-3% of the overall auto market. Where does your personal definition of successful begin?

Are these numbers going up or down?

And, having (temporarily) achieved that market share, are they earning enough profits to justify their risk-adjusted cost of capital?

Their percentage is going down as the EV market itself is growing faster than Tesla sales.

Just not enough time in the market + Elon being good at capital raising and cheerleading. I'm not saying they're definitely a failure, I'm 100% saying there's no reason to necessarily believe that this sustains in the future.

"Tesla has a real shot at being successful" is definitely true. "Tesla is unquestionably already a success" is not.

They are an EV company that sells more EVs than everyone else combined. How is that not success?

A little over ten years ago they sold fewer cars than Rolls Royce. Today they sell more cars than Volvo, and they are profitable. That's objectively successful.

That they were arguably the main reason why every other carmaker is transitioning to electric cars is subjectively (to me) a far greater success. The transition is past the point of no return even if Tesla were to disappear tomorrow,

That is very fair. I definitely agree if Tesla turns out to be some kind of failure in other regards, it gets credit for "forcing a change in the game."