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Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by kingTug on Sunday November 20, 2022 @09:57PM (#33688157)
For the half of working Americans who earn < $35k/yr, gambling and lotteries and such appear to be the only way to have a shot at a dignified retirement. Like so many problems, I think it can mostly be explained by stagnant wages and gargantuan, historic levels of wealth inequality.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by bluedevil2k on Sunday November 20, 2022 @10:22PM (#33688323)
Where’d you get the number $35k as half of Americans? Median household income in the US is $70k.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by yieldcrv on Sunday November 20, 2022 @10:29PM (#33688384)
household is defined as 4 people so divide by the number of adults and you get the same data
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by leetcrew on Sunday November 20, 2022 @10:40PM (#33688452)
no, a household is a tax filer plus a spouse and any others claimed as dependents. if you are single with no children and file a tax return, you are an entire household yourself. the median income for adults employed fulltime is about 33% less than the median household figure, not half.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by yieldcrv on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:16AM (#33689078)
okay 33% less, not half, there you have it folks
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by pyrale on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:44AM (#33691100)
> for adults employed fulltime

That's still not what the original poster was talking about. I didn't check his numbers, but involuntary partial employment is a thing, and I don't see a reason why those people shouldn't be counted.

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by keithalewis on Sunday November 20, 2022 @10:13PM (#33688274)
You are on to something. Dignified retirement used to mean a pension for years of hard work. We now live in a world of charlatans, and people who allow themselves to be taken advantage of. Paging P. T. Barnum. P. T. Barnum to the sucker born every minute phone.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by throwaway894345 on Monday November 21, 2022 @08:02AM (#33692024)
We also live in a world devoid of conventional wisdom. My grandparents learned that gambling was at best entertainment, they also learned to scrimp and save. My peers don’t learn this, they depend on regulation to protect them against everything, and when there isn’t regulation, they racked up six figures of student loan debt (financing a party lifestyle) and they gamble as a financial strategy.

The point isn’t to shame my peers, nor is it that my grandparents generation was without vice, but that maybe there’s something robust about developing a culture of conventional wisdom as a fallback for an increasingly unreliable government? Maybe policy isn’t the only thing that matters?

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by michaelscott on Monday November 21, 2022 @08:40AM (#33692329)
Well our grandparents lived in a world (if they were in a first world country) where working a normal job with a stay-at-home mom was enough for a comfortable retirement. This made gambling, at best, the entertainment it was viewed as.

In a lot of ways things are much more difficult now considering decades of wage stagflation and the wealth inequality globally, and this is before we factor in the recent rise in inflation everywhere. If you're not in a first world country you can raise these problems by an order of magnitude easily. It's not difficult to see how people look to gambling as the last sliver of financial hope

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by throwaway894345 on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:16PM (#33695071)
I think it probably has more to do with them living through the Great Depression and WWII. I don't know why living in better economic times would have made them less cautious.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by michaelscott on Tuesday November 22, 2022 @04:33AM (#33703826)
I'm not sure how you got less cautious from my comment. In fact I was saying the opposite, that they viewed gambling as a pastime or entertainment, not as a legitimate way to make money. It's when a person considers it a means of getting out of a financial tight spot that they start to make ridiculous and dangerous bets.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by jimbob45 on Monday November 21, 2022 @12:14AM (#33689062)
The lottery should not be used as an investment strategy by anyone.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by hnbad on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:28AM (#33690982)
Okay, according to this article[1], you need a "nest egg" of $2 million to have a retirement income of $80k per year. In 2021[2] the median household income was about $70k. The average household size[3] in the US is currently around 2.5 people, so let's round this up to 3. The poverty line[4] for a 3 person household in 2022 is roughly $23k, for 2 people it's roughly $18k.

Let's say we want a nest egg allowing a two-person household to have a retirement income of $60k: quite a bit below the median household income in the US but still considerably above the poverty line, a net positive considering you don't need to work for a living as long as you don't plan for either one of you to live for more than 30 years.

$60k is 75% of $80k, so that nest egg shrinks down to a mere $1.5 million dollars. But you should aim to live on 80% of your pre-retirement salary, so your pre-retirement salary should therefore have been $75k. In order to get there you need to set aside 15% of that $75k household salary (including any 401(k)s) every year, or just shy of $12k, leaving you with $62k actual income after retirement savings or $5.2k per month for the household (you, your spouse, any children, rent, cost of living and savings for emergencies like health, maintenance or replacements).

If that doesn't sound so bad, consider that this is for someone living just above the median and aiming to maintain a similar standard of living. The further your household income is below the median, the more painful those 15% will be and the only reward will be to get to live in the same level of distress just with a more reliable stable income (assuming it doesn't get eaten up by other expenses you couldn't save for or that arise as a consequence of your already low standard of living, e.g. health issues).

So if that's the "best case" prospect, can you imagine why the chance to become a "millionaire" (and remember: a $2 million nest egg represents a $80k retirement income, a good $10k above the median household income) might be more enticing to a significant chunk of the population than the safer more reliable investments that will at best help them maintain their meager standard of living as long as they don't have any unforseen emergencies?

The exact numbers here are entirely irrelevant. Jobs with higher income generally also offer better options for investment and retirement plans, jobs with low income may not even offer a 401(k). Low income also means any expense represents a larger percentage of your income because costs don't scale linearly, especially when it comes to essentials (e.g. gas prices are the same for everyone and a cheap car may actually get worse mileage and require more frequent repairs compared to a newer model that may still be in warranty).

[1]: https://www.investopedia.com/retirement/how-much-you-should-...

[2]: https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...

[3]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183648/average-size-of-h...

[4]: https://aspe.hhs.gov/topics/poverty-economic-mobility/povert...

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by hnbad on Monday November 21, 2022 @05:49AM (#33691130)
As an addendum, as I don't want to add even more text to this reply itself, my point is that while gambling is clearly an irrational investment strategy as the odds are so bad compared to conventional forms of investment (some of which are at least guaranteed to not incur any losses beyond inflation), it's entirely understandable why it's appealing if the alternative is to be stuck on the lower end of the income range (or even dropping into welfare) forever.

While wealthy "whales" exist and the gambling industry likes to portray them all as Saudi oil barons with more money than sense so you don't feel bad about them sinking a few billion dollars into gambling as extravagance because they still come out as billionaires, the truth is the most reliable source of income are people (and for cultural reasons especially men) with a low income who see no career path to "striking it big" and think gambling will work for them because beating the literal odds feels more managable than doing so at the job market.

On my way to work I drive past four gambling halls, including two sports betting places. There's another sports betting machine at a nearby bodega. The cars parking in front of these places aren't fancy, they're average at best. The people coming in and out of these places or discreetly trying to smoke outside without being identified by people who might know them are mostly typical workers, more likely to be immigrants than not, often enthusiastically chatting about their dead-end side-hustles or acquaintances of acquaintances who have "struck it big" but often just end up "reinvesting" their gains and losing it all again.

The gambling halls and sports betting places don't provide entertainment. They provide empty promises. Especially with sports betting the gamblers understand it as a game of skill rather than chance and they think they just have to do good enough to become millionaires.

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by ndriscoll on Monday November 21, 2022 @01:25PM (#33695999)
This sort of analysis is common in the financial "advice" (sales, really) industry, but makes no sense. You shouldn't start from your income while working, but from your expected expenses. For example my 3 person household has about 40k/yr in expenses, which is more-or-less independent of my income, given that I make more than that. Once our mortgage is paid off, that will be more like 28k. The average social security benefit is ~18.5k/yr, so that leaves a 10k/yr shortfall at our current lifestyle, which only requires 250k in retirement savings at the 4% rate you're using. Our discretionary spending has inflated somewhat in the past couple years (some of it has been "buy-it-for-life" stuff like furniture), but my wife and I as a 2 person household could comfortably live on just SS once the house is paid off. We'd just be living like we did in our 20s again, and we were perfectly comfortable then. We'd also still have the things we've bought over the years, so really we'd be more comfortable. Presumably there will be some additional health expenses as we age, but as far as I know Medicare isn't so bad that we'd need anywhere close to $80k income in retirement. That additional $10k/yr lifestyle above SS could also be covered by $100/month contributed over 40 years at 7% real returns.

So assuming you can put together a down payment (possibly 3.5% for FHA loans), and assuming you believe in the long term stability of US economic conditions in general, the boring, responsible path to a quiet, comfortable life continues to work even below median income levels.

(This also assumes good health for most of your life. Certainly many people get the short end of the stick there, but many more simply don't take care of themselves.)

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by paganel on Monday November 21, 2022 @03:23AM (#33690185)
Unfortunately sports gambling has already become a world-wide problem by this point, for reasons similar to what say apply to the US working people.

I live in an Eastern-European country, and the half-time pause of yesterday's football World Cup opener was more than 75% filled with sports bet adds. This was happening on national television. I can sincerely say that that wasn't the case 10 to 15 years ago.

Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by headsoup on Monday November 21, 2022 @06:53AM (#33691563)
With of course the irony that it will almost guarantee they don't get that.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by djbebs on Monday November 21, 2022 @07:22AM (#33691739)
Ironic that they are giving up their actual realistic chance for a dignified retirement by blowing their money on gambling.
Re:Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Be... by andrepd on Monday November 21, 2022 @08:30AM (#33692246)
Is it realistic if it was never going to happen in the first place?