News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by eganist on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:26PM (#33674908)
That distinction is already there. As I understand it, there's a differentiation between "male" and "female" biological sex v. "man" and "woman" gender identities. Hence terms like AMAB/AFAB (assigned male/female at birth).

I'm not at all as well versed on it as I should be and I'm working to understand it better as time goes on, but the distinction was made using existing language to avoid overloading, and later generations already understand the distinction pretty intuitively.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by knaekhoved on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:31PM (#33674969)
Your example contradicts the claim. They say "assigned male at birth" rather than "male", because they believe you can be a female even if you were assigned male at birth.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by eganist on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:34PM (#33675002)
> Your example contradicts the claim. They say "assigned male at birth" rather than "male", because they believe you can be a female even if you were assigned male at birth.

I'm not sure that's a contradiction so much as it's trying to weave through people's own synonymizing of the two terms where a distinction is being made. I hear your point though.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by delecti on Saturday November 19, 2022 @06:06PM (#33675886)
It's more that male/female is not a single binary, it's several bimodal spectra. Chromosomes of xx or xy don't perfectly line up with birth genitals, birth genitals don't perfectly line up with endogenous hormones, and endogenous hormones don't perfectly line up with internal sense of self, several of those things can be changed later, and none of them are clear binaries.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by knaekhoved on Saturday November 19, 2022 @10:14PM (#33677804)
In excess of 99.98% of people have the genitals naively predicted by their chromosomes.

This is one of the closest-to-perfectly-binary phenomena that exists in nature.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by delecti on Sunday November 20, 2022 @10:36AM (#33681716)
Not even 99.98% of people have unambiguous genitalia (it's about 99.5-99.97% [1]), before we even get to people with the "opposite" genitalia of what their chromosomes would suggest. An in any case, genitalia was only one of the 4 things I mentioned, and are also one of the ones that can be changed later.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Prevalence

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by knaekhoved on Sunday November 20, 2022 @12:17PM (#33682947)
> and are also one of the ones that can be changed later

Frankensteinian surgical mutilation is not really "changing genitals".

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by delecti on Monday November 21, 2022 @09:43AM (#33692991)
Trans bottom surgery has one of the highest satisfaction rates of any surgery. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll rely on the opinions of people actually living with the surgical results. This [1] lists a 94-100% satisfaction rate, which to me feels a fair bit higher than one might normally expect from victims of "mutilation".

[1] https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/21526-gende...

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by orand on Monday November 21, 2022 @02:26PM (#33696740)
> It's more that male/female is not a single binary, it's several bimodal spectra.

Gametes are not "several bimodal spectra." They are a single binary. And they are what define male/female.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by homonculus1 on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:29PM (#33674957)
"Male" and "man" are an adjective and a noun referring to the same thing.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:33PM (#33674993)
That's certainly one opinion. A common use of language these days separates the concept of manliness from the concept of maleness.

Bill Gates is, for example, not particularly manly, but he's absolutely male.

I find it useful to separate the concepts, and others do too. You might not find that useful, but you should be aware language is evolving towards those definitions recently.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by lotsofpulp on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:49PM (#33675136)
> Bill Gates is, for example, not particularly manly, but he's absolutely male.

What does manly mean? Because Bill Gates does not seem to be missing features that I find typical of males in the US. Otherwise, I would say pretty much all male office workers and many other males are as “manly” as Bill Gates”, at which point I figure the word loses utility.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:02PM (#33675245)
Great question.

Compare, say, Brad Pitt to Bill Gates. Or The Rock to Peewee Herman. There are differences between how closely those people fit the archetypal mold of "manly".

I'm comfortable saying that Arnold Schwarzenegger is manlier than I am. He ticks more of the boxes we associate with "man", culturally. He's muscular, successful, attractive, tough, etc. I've got a bit of a spare tire, I'm pretty soft, etc.

He and I both are male, and about the same degree of male. We both have penises, etc.

In this way we can use "man" to describe our features that are culturally associated (ruggedness, toughness, cigars and whiskey, etc.) from the biological features (penis, testicles, body hair, etc.)

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by wang_li on Saturday November 19, 2022 @06:14PM (#33675969)
People who read your comment should think on manliness and then see how you're portraying it and then consider what you say accordingly.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:04PM (#33676459)
I'm trying to articulate my understanding of what the typical American considers manly. Do you have a different understanding of what the archetype is? I'm happy to work with that.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by jasmer on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:56PM (#33675191)
The term 'man' infers gender while 'male' refers to sex, and has nothing to do with the term 'manliness' in the context you described.

The language is 'evolving' only among a very small subset of people on earth who happen to believe they are the 'social vanguard', that doesn't make them so.

The response to the linguistic disassociation between the obviously inexorable relationship between gender and sex is, I would guess, considerably bigger and I don't think this argument is going to be won but the language antagonists. I think society is going to accept trans people, which is good ... but I suggest we're never moving away from classical gender terminology.

The rest of the world is coming online very quickly and they want nothing to do with our linguistic wars. They'll change their language when they start using 'Latinx' (a term invented by 'colonialist progressives') in Mexico which is to say, probably never.

And by the way that's perfectly fine. Paradoxically, in many other parts of the world trans people are far more commonly accepted and have been for some time, lo and behold, they use 'men and women' in the common sense, without any problem at all.

In Canada, they fight over whether the stop signs should say 'STOP' or 'ARRET' (aka English or French) because that's how rich and prosperous they are, they can afford to inflate ideological inanities to the level of material concern.

[dead]
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:22PM (#33675436)
I'm sorry, but I don't see how you can be so prescriptive about language.

People use the words in the manner I describe. People use the words in the manner you describe. Both usages exist and are common, albeit in different areas.

I'm not denying people use the language in the manner you describe, I'm saying people additionally use it in the manner I describe. And since language is descriptive, not proscriptive, we need to understand both usages exist and be able to recognize both, even if we disagree with them.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by 8note on Saturday November 19, 2022 @06:15PM (#33675986)
Bill gates is known for being a ruthless business executive. What's not manly about that?
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:06PM (#33676484)
Apologies, I'm happy to work with whatever your icon of unmanliness is. The specific objective was to identify that there are spreads of people who appear to the general public as more or less manly. Please, if you have an alternative, I'm happy to work with that.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by jimbokun on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:23PM (#33676643)
Males can be boys, roosters, bulls, etc. etc.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by int_19h on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:50PM (#33676850)
The fact that you can say "a male" - and people do it all the time, e.g. it's typical in police reports - means that it's not just an adjective.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by SoftTalker on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:16PM (#33675390)
These "assigned" terms don't really work IMO. It imples some choice has been made, by someone. Who is doing the assigning? And it happens before birth, if we want to be accurate.

"Conceived male" or "Conceived female" (leaving out the case of genetic abnormalities) seems better to me.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by dahdum on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:37PM (#33675592)
> It imples some choice has been made, by someone. Who is doing the assigning? And it happens before birth, if we want to be accurate.

It's on the birth certificate, so it is assigned. There are some efforts to remove it, so perhaps that will change.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by SoftTalker on Saturday November 19, 2022 @06:37PM (#33676200)
Doesn't seem like assignment to me, more like documenting.

Has a penis -> Boy

Has a vagina -> Girl

Of course that is not a designation of what gender identity the person will adopt, and perhaps change more than once, over the course of his or her lifetime.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by dillondoyle on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:58PM (#33675806)
assignment does not always happen before birth.

There are lots of kids born with ambiguous & differing genitals where parents & doctors make an assignment for that kid outside the womb.

also ignores a lot of different chromosomal and hormonal differences outside the norm.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by foverzar on Saturday November 19, 2022 @06:28PM (#33676120)
> There are lots of kids born with ambiguous & differing genitals where parents & doctors make an assignment for that kid outside the womb.

This sounds suspicious. I don't really believe that the ambiguity is actually that ambiguous to the point where it's actually hard to decide.

Or that such "assignments" can be made without ending with suicide.

It's not like biological sex is actually defined by visible members - it's a chromosome thing.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by yosame on Saturday November 19, 2022 @11:11PM (#33678153)
> Or that such "assignments" can be made without ending with suicide.

Well for one, it'd cause dysphoria, not necessarily suicide. Some people feel bad their whole lives without killing themselves.

But the main point is, that's why doctors shouldn't do these assignments. Why on earth should the decision of what sex characteristics to have be up to anyone but yourself.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by foverzar on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:14PM (#33684794)
> But the main point is, that's why doctors shouldn't do these assignments

Do they ACTUALLY do them, though? I've read about some freakish case when a child was mutilated during circumcision, and the doctor had advised to bring up the child as a girl, but I am having a hard time believing that this is a common practice, that just doesn't pass my sanity check.

> Why on earth should the decision of what sex characteristics to have be up to anyone but yourself.

It's not like anyone actually "decides" these things, but rather has to live with what nature gave you. One can surely try to cosmetically "fix" this and strive for social acceptance, but this won't change medical facts. And theoretically it shouldn't, if we actually distinct between biological sex and gender.

It seems to me that most of all the confusion and the fixation on genitalia comes from people not actually truly believing gender to be an actual social construct.

Otherwise, HRT would be sufficient in 99.9% times and SRS wouldn't even be a thing.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by snoozing on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:09AM (#33678984)
>There are lots of kids born with ambiguous & differing genitals where parents & doctors make an assignment for that kid outside the womb.

I don’t think most people would argue against medically intersex people identifying outside of traditional norms, which I would imagine is a small subset of people identifying as trans.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by int_19h on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:51PM (#33676861)
There's a more recent trend claiming that "male" and "female" are similarly fluid and not set in stone.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by zach_garwood on Saturday November 19, 2022 @10:57PM (#33678077)
It's not a "trend"; it's established science.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by int_19h on Sunday November 20, 2022 @03:50AM (#33679415)
When it comes to biological sex, which is what "male" and "female" normally refer to, the established science is that it is determined by your physiology. It's not the same thing as "man" and "woman", which is gender identity.

But thank you for illustrating OP's point.