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Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by rolobio on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:23PM (#33674874)
There is absolutely a consensus (well, there was until about 5 years ago). People point at exceptions to prove the rule is entirely false. How many arms do humans have? Two. “Well my uncle was born without arms! So clearly humans have an unknown amount of arms”. Men and women are real, there are a couple of exceptions, but not as many as people imagine.

I expect this to be promptly removed from the front page. I’m happy to see taboo subjects being spoken of again.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:36PM (#33675035)
Third gender people and intersex people have existed as long as humans have.

Western cultures in the past couple decades have started acknowledging this, but the concept is not foreign to all countries.

And the changes proposed are to include as many people as possible. You might say, people are typically born with two arms, sometimes fewer. It doesn't remove the fact that most people express as 2 armed, while including the people who don't.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by rolobio on Saturday November 19, 2022 @04:42PM (#33675078)
No one is denying exceptions exist. Humans have two arms. Anything else is an exception to the rule, but the rule still applies.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:05PM (#33675285)
Atoms are binary in your model, every atom is hydrogen or helium, or an exception?

I believe that we can be inclusive of those exceptions and treat them as unique things that are within the definition, rather than placing them outside the definition. I would rather spend the energy to evolve definitions to include people rather than tell people they are marginalia.

It sounds like you disagree.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by rolobio on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:33PM (#33675541)
I don’t understand what atoms have to do with gender.

It is not inclusive to call a woman a “birthing person” it’s actually excluding the women who can’t give birth. Are women who can’t become pregnant men? Of course not.

We have let politeness run away with us. It’s time to kindly, but firmly tell people there are two genders. It’s not a kindness to lie to a person, even if they ask for the lie.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by detaro on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:37PM (#33675584)
> it’s actually excluding the women who can’t give birth

Not out of the group of "women", so "Are women who can’t become pregnant men?" doesn't make sense.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:45PM (#33675672)
I think you might be misunderstanding the way language is evolving here.

Woman who can't give birth are still women. Women who cannot menstruate are still women. We are not removing anyone from the set of women.

What we are saying is that, in addition to women there are also people who do not recognize themselves as women, but who can give birth or menstruate.

So, we could say "women, men, and other gendered people who give birth..." or "birthing women, men, and other gendered people".

But that's a mouthful. All genders are people, so we choose "people who give birth" since it includes women AND people who are not women.

So yes, it's inclusive because it's including women and not women, rather than only women.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by snoozing on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:13AM (#33679003)
If women don’t agree with being a large part of their identity being renamed, then it doesn’t feel inclusive.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by jasmer on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:02PM (#33675241)
The example you've provided actually does not support you argument, just the opposite.

People 'typically' have two arms?

Well they 'typically' also have two legs, a sense of smell, sight, hearing, a heart, two lungs, the ability to speak.

What exactly can we expect all 'humans' to have? And how can we refer to them without making any assumptions whatsoever about their state of being so as to be 'inclusive' as you say?

It's a Monty Python sketch of absurdity and will end up with people slapping others in the face with fish.

Aside from probably using 'they' or 'them' in some cases in which we didn't tend to before, language as we use it is perfectly fine in almost all cases. It never will perfectly encompass everyone and that's fine, it doesn't have to.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by foldr on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:31PM (#33675518)
>What exactly can we expect all 'humans' to have? And how can we refer to them without making any assumptions whatsoever about their state of being so as to be 'inclusive' as you say?

This question answers itself, no? You can refer to them as 'humans'.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by jasmer on Sunday November 20, 2022 @05:28AM (#33679842)
Actually in practical use, we'd be obliged to use whatever language the individual identified as, which is the new 'subjective' way of being 'objective'.

I'm happy to use he, she or they, because it's reasonable and rational but beyond that it's all shenanigans, I have no time for it.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by foldr on Sunday November 20, 2022 @06:32AM (#33680116)
If you're addressing an individual person rather than talking about humans in general, then yes, sure, go with what that person prefers.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by ClassyJacket on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:03PM (#33675255)
What's the third gender?

What's it called? What's an example of a person of that gender?

What gametes do they have? What chromosomes?

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:29PM (#33675497)
Depends on your culture. The Diné people have four genders (feminine man, masculine man, feminine woman, masculine woman), hijra and fa'afafine are feminine male genders, in Inuit culture a sipiniq is someone who fulfills a man's role with female genitalia.

In mesopotamia, mesoamerica, and the Indus valley there were people of unclear sex who fulfilled genders beyond men and women.

A neologism from pan indigenous culture is Two Spirit.

These concepts have existed for a loooong time, however they were quite rare in western countries. As westerners, we're being exposed to them now, but they are hardly novel on the world stage.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by int_19h on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:54PM (#33676877)
It's interesting though that all those cultures came up with distinct terms for trans identities. I suspect there'd be a lot less pushback if this was tried with English instead of overloading the meaning of pre-existing terms.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:11AM (#33678988)
Probably true!
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by throwaway675309 on Saturday November 19, 2022 @10:40PM (#33677961)
These are nice terms but they're heavily rooted in social constructs and don't really answer the OPS question which was tying biological sex to well... biology and in this particular case gametes/chromosomes.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by fleddr on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:27PM (#33675478)
You will never get an answer. Biological sex, gender, gender identity, gender expression and even gender roles are thrown into a pile to play 5D chess.

Fact remains, there is no third sex. Intersex is not a third sex and sexual anomalies also do not introduce a third sex.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by dmix on Saturday November 19, 2022 @05:27PM (#33675479)
Rare exceptions to the rule doesn't make rules useless.
Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by jimbokun on Saturday November 19, 2022 @07:28PM (#33676674)
> Third gender people

Gender isn't sex.

Re:The erasure of women from online pregnancy literature by socialismisok on Sunday November 20, 2022 @02:11AM (#33678991)
True, and good catch.