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Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by TaylorAlexander on Monday November 14, 2022 @05:19PM (#33602103)
Yep and there’s already a paid service offering hosted instances!

https://masto.host/

There’s also an open and active GitHub issue on mastodon discussing how to separate server hosting from domain name so you can point DNS at an existing instance and use it from that domain: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/2668

Many thanks to my friend on twitter for pointing me to both of these: https://twitter.com/__jesse_li/status/1592006641897320448

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by MonkeyMalarky on Monday November 14, 2022 @05:45PM (#33602448)
I just had nightmares of internal corporate instances.

>Mastodon by Teams (tm), please log in with your active directory credentials to see the latest posts from HR!

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by trelane on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:30PM (#33602949)
At least they'd (Microsoft) have to make the changes publicly available, since it's AGPL. So they can't have secret shenanigans that others don't have.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by doctor_eval on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:43PM (#33603068)
Genuinely don’t understand. Is the ActivityPub protocol AGPL? Is there something stopping MS from just building their own server from scratch?
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by codefreakxff on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:52PM (#33603168)
They would also make a Microsoft owned version of the protocol to support features only their client and server supported
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by sitkack on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:55PM (#33605073)
Why wouldn't they just implement SOAP over JSON?
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by esarbe on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @02:42AM (#33620126)
ActivityPup is an API.

APIs are not protected by copyright.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by fragmede on Monday November 14, 2022 @06:49PM (#33603139)
The AGPL only applies if they make it available externally though. If they have their own internal instance the AGPL only says that Microsoft employees must be able to access the source code.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by mr_toad on Monday November 14, 2022 @07:04PM (#33603289)
Microsoft hosts teams for their customers. So if they modified the code all their customers users would be entitled to see it.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by LinuxBender on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#33609271)
While I agree with this, I've interfaced with many lawyers that interpret AGPL differently mostly due to following license dependency trees. They nuked any project that went anywhere near AGPL even if the project was internal-only. This was not limited to places I worked either. There are others in my circle that had their projects shot down for using AGPL code. I do not fully grasp the logic the lawyers arrive at. Perhaps they are treating it the same way I treated PCI compliance, in that anything touching it gets infected by the zombie virus and must also be compliant.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by JAlexoid on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:51PM (#33605057)
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by alisonatwork on Monday November 14, 2022 @07:11PM (#33603362)
This already existed. It was called Yammer, and nobody used it, and then Microsoft bought it anyway. Apparently it's rolled into Teams now, but since my last few companies were Slack shops I don't know how many people use the Teams-branded Yammer feature. Probably still nobody. Unlike chat, email and wiki, I don't think microblogging has ever proved to be useful in the workplace.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by lmm on Monday November 14, 2022 @07:24PM (#33603482)
Yammer was pretty nice for what it did. It felt more structured and formal than Slack, but wasn't as painful to edit as wikis tend to be.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by happymellon on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @07:22AM (#33608254)
Teams is already more structured and formal than slack. And it's an absolute pain to send team messages.

Everyone always just starts a group chat instead, as the reply is always so small and hidden, and the card system makes it hard to manage more than one or two threads at a time.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by Angostura on Monday November 14, 2022 @08:00PM (#33603791)
Yammer is separate from Teams, still
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by ekianjo on Monday November 14, 2022 @08:51PM (#33604239)
> Apparently it's rolled into Teams now

Yes, and still nobody uses it

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by jackvalentine on Monday November 14, 2022 @11:15PM (#33605198)
It is absolutely massive at my org.

The comms team religiously using it, and the ‘what’s happening’ digest being on by default meaning posts are surfaced in to people’s inboxes regularly until they unsubscribe means everyone knows about it.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by MattDemers on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:25AM (#33605644)
Oddly, I know a few EVE Online corporations used it.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by shagie on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @11:18AM (#33611106)
EVE Online has some of the most dedicated "fake companies in space" that I've seen - complete with accountants.

Eve Online fans literally cheer Microsoft Excel features at annual Fanfest - https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/05/eve-onlines-ms-excel-... /// https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31292593

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by WorldMaker on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:51PM (#33614088)
> I don't know how many people use the Teams-branded Yammer feature.

So this has only gotten weirder recently. Microsoft decided to rename Yammer when inside of Teams to Viva Engage. Nothing about this branding decision makes sense. It's still Yammer if you open a link to the web version. It's still Yammer.com if you want to go to the public web version. It's just called Viva Engage inside of Teams and now Outlook. (To use an ancient dumb aphorism, apparently it is now called Yammer in the streets and Viva Engage in the sheets.)

On top of different brand name (for the same app!) there's also a different UI design. It's almost the most confusing you could possibly make it.

Whoever is at Microsoft in charge of these marketing decisions has either lost their mind or this is some sort of long con that doesn't make sense yet. (There's hints that Microsoft is trying to rename Cortana to Viva, and they did rename what used to be Cortana Insights emails to Viva Insights, all of which are also dumb brand names. This seems an effort play up that these various inside-Teams and inside-Outlook sub-services are some sort of "intelligent business assistant for business users only" to jettison the final remaining ties to consumer Cortana [RIP] and the fun gaming-originated name for something bland and soulless and not-fun capital-E Enterprise, sigh.)

Anecdotally, the rebrand so far seems to be diminishing use of Yammer inside of Teams at my employer. They had Yammer as a default app in the default sidebar of Teams but when the branding switched Viva Engage is no longer in the default list. There's still something of a "well, post it on Yammer" culture here and people don't even seem to realize they can do it directly in Teams anymore because Teams no longer has a "Yammer app" and no one knows to look for "Viva Engage".

This is all just really wild and feels a bit like Microsoft has lost some of its mind here.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by Terretta on Wednesday November 16, 2022 @08:49AM (#33622804)
For hypothetical grand plan, see: Loop
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by selfhoster11 on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:46AM (#33607176)
That don’t sound too bad. I would use it, if it meant avoiding the Teams client application.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Monday November 14, 2022 @07:21PM (#33603461)
Having a specilized hosting company means that self-hosting Mastodon is challenging! So, it's MastoDon't, basically!
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by TaylorAlexander on Monday November 14, 2022 @08:17PM (#33603972)
I mean, yes self hosting a Linux computer in the cloud requires certain skills and time. This is the basis of the business model for the biggest companies on the internet - we will run a service for you so you don’t have to run your own server. This is true even for hosting a basic HTML web page - a whole lot of people do not want to operate their own server, and this in no way means the service is bad.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Monday November 14, 2022 @09:05PM (#33604367)
Wrong! Hosting Mastodon is a different type of challenge, not to mention how much wasteful it is due to the poor choice of Ruby! Yes, Oracle Labs are trying Truffle, but it's not officially supported yet.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by derefr on Monday November 14, 2022 @09:51PM (#33604647)
What does the choice of programming language for a reference implementation have to do with the cost/benefit analysis of the protocol it implements?
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:05PM (#33604747)
Oh, it's now a reference implementation... since when?! Do those people who climb on the Mastodon bandwagon know this is just a POC turned into a Product, which now competes with Twitter?!

The language makes a huge difference as you need to deploy the whole Ruby toolchain, and front it with all the hard choices Rubyists had to deal with for ages to make it kinda work! You don't make a distributed competitor of Twitter following its own wrong design chocies!

Mastodon is old, and it's a shaky foundation, and it should be rebuilt from scratch instead of disappointing the millions of people who suddenly like Dorsey more than Musk... although Dorsey is working on Bluesky, not Mastodon, or ActivityPub!

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by jsjohnst on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:56PM (#33605084)
> Oh, it's now a reference implementation... since when?! Do those people who climb on the Mastodon bandwagon know this is just a POC turned into a Product, which now competes with Twitter?!

Might I suggest you take a deep breath and tell yourself ‘it’s ok, I don’t need to pick fights with random people over trivial things’?

> The language makes a huge difference

If a decentralized social network is a good thing (jury is out imho), guess it’s a good thing that there’s ActivityPub implementations in multiple wildly different languages then?

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by libraryatnight on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:52AM (#33605788)
What's your beef? Seriously.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:19AM (#33605912)
Seriously? We used to have comptuters with just 48KB RAM and created great software for it. Now, we have mobile apps like Facebook, which is over 2GB in size, and they are just a gigafat client of a server app!!! Mastodon is just like that - slow, wasteful, not scalable! And what's the worst is that people are getting hopeful about it not remembering how Ruby tanked Twitter back then! Doesn't anyone remember the Fail Whale?!
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by libraryatnight on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @02:02AM (#33606146)
You need to calm down
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:22AM (#33606663)
For real.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:40AM (#33606776)
Actually, I'm pretty calm - I can't say the same about the super excited users of Mastodon in the near future though! And, honestly, all this "movement" or "exodus" being based on Elon Musk taking over, really?! How was Twitter any better before him?! The blatant censorship actually made many people flee Twitter long before ELon Musk and it was heavily infested with bots since day 1 and I find no utility in it. Twitter is an acute form of masochism trying to follow a "conversation" on it. I do have Twitter Blue and I've been a paying subscribero of Threadreader before, but they don't help.

ANyway, just try to imagine the same spammy bots taking down all Mastodon servers when the super eager to leave Twitter move to the next cool thing... It won't be pretty! The Fail Whale will feel like a joke compared to what's about to come.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by mrtranscendence on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @09:58AM (#33609866)
Characterizing Twitter moderation as "blatant censorship" does not, to my mind, indicate that you are a serious conversant here.

> How was Twitter any better before him?!

Before Musk took over it wasn't saddled with the $13B in debt he took on to buy it. Before Musk took over advertisers weren't fleeing the platform in droves. Before Musk took over no one could impersonate Eli Lilly with a blue checkmark and cause its stock to crash. There's no indication now that Twitter will do anything to stop hate campaigns and abuse when they arise (hate speech is free speech, after all, and isn't illegal in the US). I could imagine some kind of future for Twitter before Musk, but that's immensely more difficult now.

I don't think Mastodon is the solution, mind you. But it's no surprise to me that a lot of folks are looking for an alternative.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by vidarh on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:20AM (#33606654)
Having actually looked at and run Mastodon, of the problems Mastodon have, and there are quite a few, the choice of Ruby is far down the list, and your focus on it suggests you haven't spent any time looking at where the complexity is.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:29AM (#33606721)
Why is there no Ruby web framework in the most iconic benchmark [0]?

[0]: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by vidarh on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @07:09AM (#33608163)
You're moving goalposts. Gone from "complexity" to performance. Ironically I'd have been more willing to agree with you that the complexity of Mastodon is a challenge.

But presumably because very few people cares about that benchmark and what is supported depends on what they choose to add. You're the first person I've ever seen mention it.

For a simple reason: Performance on dynamic requests is a choke point only for a miniscule proportion of sites, and the federation that is a selling point for Mastodon ensures that any single Mastodon instance is far less likely to ever approach a size where that becomes an issue. There are certainly sites where I wouldn't run Ruby, even though it's a language I love to use.

But I'll repeat myself: The choice of Ruby is far down the list of issues with Mastodon.

Returning to the benchmark, it's also contrived to reference as a general measure for a web app. Anyone building actual systems using Ruby puts Ruby behind a reverse proxy exactly because we're fully aware you focus on avoiding hitting the Ruby app server for anything static or cacheable, and so the setups on that benchmark (there are at least four frameworks and a couple of dozen entries) are entirely atypical for Ruby app server setups (they all hit the web server hosting the Ruby app directly).

That's fine - they measure what they measure, but they don't measure a realistic web app setup with any relevance to Mastodon.

E.g. the vast majority of traffic for a Mastodon instance is read-only requests to toots and media that are trivially statically cached, and so the vast majority of hits to a Mastodon server set up to actually scale should never hit the app server at all.

I have a deep distaste for Rails, and think Mastodon is more complex than it needs to, and there's plenty to criticise Mastodon for, but you're barking up the wrong tree.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by derefr on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @04:02PM (#33614962)
> Oh, it's now a reference implementation... since when?!

For any software that embodies an open and formally-specified protocol (in this case, the protocol is ActivityPub), any first implementation of it is a reference implementation (as opposed to a defining implementation), because at any point someone else can create another implementation, and then both implementations will have to deal with adhering to the standard, rather than either being able to bully the other into implementing things a certain way. It's not about whether anyone else has implemented a second client for the standard; it's just about whether they can, and what would happen if they did.

Examples of things that are reference implementations of open protocols/formats, where the protocol/format "came from" the reference implementation but then became its own thing, with other implementations: Memcached, Redis, IPFS; PNG, OpenDocument.

Example of something that's not a "reference implementation of an open protocol", despite seeming like it: Amazon S3. There are many other "S3-compatible" servers; but there's no open, formalized standard for what "S3 compatibility" means; and so Amazon can change S3's API at any time, and everyone else will just have to deal with that. (They won't — it's been the same stable API forever — but they could. And what they can do is the point here.)

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by tomrod on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:09PM (#33604773)
If I may suggest, I recommend reading up on the concept of comparative advantage. Economics suggests that an org that spends more on self serving Mastodon or any service outside their core offering costs should be willing to offload that to a specialized service if the service offering is lower.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:33PM (#33604925)
I know no commercial organization running their own Mastodon - all instances I know are some non-commercial communities who are just too attached to their favorite domain. As communities run by volunteers, the cost is more important than the volunteer effort.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by tomrod on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @12:44AM (#33605749)
> I know no commercial organization running their own Mastodon

Key to remember is yet. The internet started as DARPAnet, after all.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by robin_reala on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:38AM (#33606009)
You’ve got an extra D, it was ARPANET.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by tomrod on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @07:53AM (#33608537)
Serves me right typing on a phone without my glasses.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by cricalix on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:17AM (#33605901)
It may not quite count as commercial, but the EU as an entity has their own instance. European Commission and others are on it.

https://social.network.europa.eu/about

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by nikolay on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:22AM (#33605926)
Are we now giving bureaucrats as a positive example? I see so many people running closed servers with just a couple of accounts of it, which is another failure of Mastodon - not easily allowing people to use their own domains as identities instead of having to run a whole new server, which is a total waste, and not helping the ecosystem!
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by echelon on Monday November 14, 2022 @09:20PM (#33604459)
> Yep and there’s already a paid service offering hosted instances!

> https://masto.host/

What's old is new again!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezboard [1]

And later,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VBulletin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invision_Community

[1] I'm upset that archive.org can't display any of this content due to the robots.txt of one of the later owners of the domain name.

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by dredmorbius on Monday November 14, 2022 @09:57PM (#33604688)
Oh man, memories and flashbacks...
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by skinnymuch on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:21PM (#33604858)
Do you know if Masto Host will open their doors to customers again?
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:32AM (#33606739)
I don’t know.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by WorldMaker on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:02PM (#33614229)
The owner/admin of Masto Host has made various statements that he doesn't want to host more than a small target % of users and instances at any given time, because he wants to keep the fediverse diverse in hosts/doesn't ever want to be the single-point-of-failure in a federated network. (Which truly is a great attitude and one of the things I like about supporting masto.host.) So the impression I have here is that he is waiting for some of this massive influx of users to slough off a bit and give him a better idea of something resembling the new steady state before deciding on if masto.host's hosted percentage still fits within his self-imposed cap.

All of this also coincides with a massive migration to Mastodon v4 adding to current maintenance burdens.

So the short answer is: masto.host probably will open its doors again if it doesn't seem to be hosting too much of the Fediverse, and it will probably be at least a few more days if not a few more weeks before registrations open back up if they do.

(There are some alternative hosts to consider if you don't want to wait on masto.host.)

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by solaceb on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:39PM (#33604968)
A really, really deep irony that you found these cool new Masto things on twitter. The king still reigns
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by JAlexoid on Monday November 14, 2022 @10:48PM (#33605036)
Twitter is free, operational, easily accessible and known.

Finding a mastodon instance is a pain today. And "run your own" is not a great option. (It's a pain to run your own publicly accessible anything, these days. I will never go back to running my own email server ever again)

Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:32AM (#33606735)
Also I have 20x the followers on Twitter because I’ve been using it longer! And I still get a lot out of mastodon.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by TaylorAlexander on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @03:31AM (#33606732)
I suppose. I’ve also got 20x the followers on Twitter because I’ve been using it actively for years, but I’ve only recently started using mastodon. I can certainly say I’ve learned more about mastodon from posts on mastodon, but in this instance a user from twitter was helpful. Notably that user is also on mastodon. I’ll have to check to see if we’re following each other there. Every day I find more of my twitter friends on mastodon, and it’s a lovely feeling.
Re:Scaling Mastodon Is Impossible by weinzierl on Tuesday November 15, 2022 @01:43AM (#33606042)
Actually there are several and some are listed on the Mastodon website[1]. Look in the "So you want to run your own Mastodon server" section.

I have only heard the best about masto.host but they have closed subscriptions for now (which only speaks for them IMHO). I have personal experience with Ossrox and Weingärtner IT, they are both excellent and I can recommend them without hesitation. I have no affiliation with any of those companies except being a customer of the later two.

EDIT: The price of a small instance is less than a Twitter subscription. So, if you want your own instance - which as pros and cons - nothing is holding you back.

[1] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/run-your-own/