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Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by visarga on Thursday November 10, 2022 @01:47AM (#33543086)
I think copyright itself might be on its way out. What meaning does a copyright have when I can click "Variations" on anything and get 4 suggestions in 10 seconds? Imagine how good they will be by 2030.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by hooby on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:33AM (#33543366)
Copyright was originally intended to protect the creators of a work.

Over many years it has now mostly become a tool for large companies to accumulate rights (on works they didn't create themselves) and monetize them.

Maybe a reform is needed, to find a way back to the original purpose.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:40AM (#33543417)
> Copyright was originally intended to protect the creators of a work.

No, it wasn’t. Copyright was originally intended to protect the publishers of a work. It was later transformed to nominally focus on the creators, but even this was lobbied for by publishers in their own self-interest after the old law directly protecting them was allowed to lapse, and because it still had the same net effect since realizing value meant licensing to a publisher in most practical cases, so the publishers were still major beneficiaries.

And, of course, US copyrights under the Constitution do not exist for the purpose of protecting creators, instead a private benefit for creators is a mechanism but the purpose is expressly to “promote the progress of science of useful arts”.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by 6stringmerc on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:57AM (#33543922)
Wrong!

At the point of creation something is granted copyright.

Publishers in literature and music are right assholes who’ve created this system. Little middle men rent seeking.

It does need reform but it is for the creators that’s why it’s tied to the creator and not date of publication. Fix your perspective buckaroo

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:07AM (#33543981)
> It does need reform but it is for the creators

No, under the US Constitution it is for a specified public benefit as its purpose, the private benefit is a mechanism to achieve that.

Under the Statute of Anne, it was nominally for creators (but this was lobbied for by printers after the expiration of earlier laws, and they were the prime beneficiaries in practice.)

The earlier laws were explicitly for printers.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by j-bos on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:49AM (#33544315)
This great to know, though I'm having trouble referencing the earlier laws, can you post a link please?
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by IncRnd on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:52AM (#33544339)
> No, under the US Constitution it is for a specified public benefit as its purpose, the private benefit is a mechanism to achieve that.

Well, that's false. The actual US Constitution in Article I Section 8 Clause 8 says, "[The Congress shall have power] To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries."

That could, possibly one-day provide public benefits, but it doesn't have to. If public benefits happen, they are side-effects. The purpose is for authors and inventors to have exclusive rights in their writings and discoveries. They are never required to publish or advance anything for the public. This is a private protection not a public benefit for a "specific purpose".

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 10, 2022 @06:46AM (#33545102)
> That could, possibly one-day provide public benefits, but it doesn't have to

The text you quote is explicit: the public benefit—promotion of science and useful arts—is the purpose. Providing benefits to creators is a mechanism for acheiving that purpose, not the purpose itself. That’s what I said before, and it remains true, and you’ve just quoted the bit of the Constitution that says it while claiming it is false.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by 6stringmerc on Thursday November 10, 2022 @09:06PM (#33556470)
Chicken-egg it exists and is so far from written intention by coincidentally both artists and publishers to be a mutant, it’s just such a mess.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by IncRnd on Thursday November 10, 2022 @11:17PM (#33557264)
You are assuming that promoting the progress of science and useful arts is for the public benefit, but it can easily happen in private. That is why public benefits are not primary. That is what I pointed out to you in my earlier post, but you continue to make that same flawed assumption.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by hyperman1 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @07:36AM (#33545540)
The earlier laws were explicitly against printers. They were for scribes, and indirectly for the church, states, and other powers that controlled the scribes and wanted to limit the spread of dissident views.

At least according to most histories of copyright I've seen. Wikipedia seems to agree:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_copyright#Early_dev...

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by hooby on Thursday November 10, 2022 @09:26AM (#33546902)
> Copyright was originally intended to protect the publishers of a work.

You are talking about modern US copyright law.

But copyright laws (laws around copy) predate the existence of publishers and the declaration of independence of the United States by over a 1000 years.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by dragonwriter on Thursday November 10, 2022 @11:06AM (#33548470)
> You are talking about modern US copyright law.

No, I’m talking mostly about British copyright law prior to the nominal prioritization of creators in the Statute of Anne (1710).

(Techhically, it was focussed on printers rather than publishers, but the separation of function of those is a more modern arrangement.)

You can tell the part you target isn't about modern US copyright law because I later in the same post distinguish all US copyright law under the Constitution (which includes modern US copyright law) from it.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by LesZedCB on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:02AM (#33543174)
there's a great youtube doc about everything being remixing which i highly recommend

https://www.everythingisaremix.info/

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by esalman on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:03AM (#33543181)
Have you tried that on any kind of music?
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by throwaway290 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:17AM (#33543258)
Copyright becomes especially important and valuable in these circumstances. Remember, original works is how your variation suggestion engine is trained. With remaining incentives taken away there is no more new stuff to train on, networks get trained on own output, the snake eats own tail.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by guhayun on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:39AM (#33543409)
>networks get trained on own output

And sometimes the network improves,depending on the quality or direction of the output,the client can a valuable critic even without being an expert in the field

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by throwaway290 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @02:41AM (#33543436)
Excellent, let's see how your client critiques and improves on a song, an artwork or some source code suggested by Copilot.

(By the way, do you have an objection to my point? I must have missed it.)

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by NavinF on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:40AM (#33543818)
You didn't make a point. Training generative models on their own output after filtering for quality is a well known technique for improving image quality for a single mode. This can happen automatically when generated images become popular on the internet.

"Let's see how your car goes faster when you push the gas pedal"

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by throwaway290 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:58AM (#33544800)
If you are saying that hypothetical client knows a better song/artwork/code from worse, boy are you in for disappointment...

My point was that insane amounts of curated fully original works were required to get the output of these generative tools to the "occasionally impressive" level it is at now, and those original works exist precisely thanks to copyright. To say "oh we don't need copyright now" is to saw off the branch on which this hinges.

If you are into this stuff and want to see it become better you should rather promote copyright and differentiation of fully original works.

Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by izacus on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:31AM (#33543754)
There has never been more support for tightening and enforcing copyright than there is today. This is very unlikely to change due to megacorps like Microsoft, Disney, Apple et.al. having a massive vested interest to use it to extract maximum profits.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by classified on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:46AM (#33543850)
Copyright protection for the rich and powerful, while those who cannot afford armies of lawyers get their stuff stolen by machine learning models. Sounds credible to me.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by guntars on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:02AM (#33543959)
I find Copilot most useful for filling out debug statements such as this:

  println(“foo at {:x} is {:?}”, &foo as *const _ as usize, foo);
It almost always writes what I would have. How DARE I steal from open source contributors like that?!
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by 3836293648 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @04:56AM (#33544365)
Given how rust-y that looks, are you aware of `dbg!`? Debug printing + file name + line number and it does it properly to stderr
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by classified on Thursday November 10, 2022 @05:25AM (#33544567)
A human re-using some code according to its license is not the same as an automated machine snorting up all of the code on the platform ignoring any licenses.
Re:An Open Source Lawyer’s View on the Copilot Class Action ... by 6stringmerc on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:55AM (#33543911)
I’m not rich and powerful but I’m glad Disney is going to destroy MystickInk on principle.

Check out my essay I’ve submitted recently.