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Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by egeozcan on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:12AM (#33384177)
They are decreasing by a factor of 200, which means 1/200 of the starting amount.

English is not my native language so I was a bit confused by "200 times less", which I (wrongly) imagined to mean starting amount (x) minus 200x, getting to -199x, which didn't make sense. Math in speech is a tricky thing.

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by GoldenRacer on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:40AM (#33384410)
I am a native English speaker and this annoys me as well. 200 times less sounds more impressive than 99.5% less even if it's kind of ambiguous. Same with saying it only needs 1/200th the amount. They want big numbers in the headline and people will figure out what they meant.
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by hinkley on Saturday October 29, 2022 @12:30PM (#33385565)
It’s even more ambiguous when people say “200% faster”. What does 50% faster mean in a world where people can say 200% faster with impunity?
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by aordano on Saturday October 29, 2022 @01:36PM (#33386228)
200% faster means 3x the nominal speed:

You're adding speed ("going faster").

You're adding a 200% of speed, which is twice the nominal speed (the 100%). Given the nominal speed is 1x and you're adding 2x, you end with triple the magnitude of the original nominal speed.

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by hinkley on Saturday October 29, 2022 @03:20PM (#33387161)
You've dodged the question mark. What does 50% faster mean? What does 67% faster mean? What does 75% faster mean?

I'm using the exact same terminology, so splitting hairs on phrasing isn't going to work for me.

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by mattkrause on Saturday October 29, 2022 @03:40PM (#33387301)
Something crawls along at 1 m/s.

After some clever engineering, it now runs 50% faster. Its speed is now 100% (the original rate) + 50% (improvement) = 150% of 1 m/s = 1.5 * 1 m/s = 1.5 m/s

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by fragmede on Saturday October 29, 2022 @03:34PM (#33387261)
50% faster means original speed plus 50%, or 1.5x
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by aordano on Saturday October 29, 2022 @04:05PM (#33387508)
As sibling comments said, 50% faster means adding 50% of the nominal speed, so it's 1.5x the original magnitude.
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by stormbrew on Saturday October 29, 2022 @06:49PM (#33388752)
It would be nice if this were the universal meaning of this phrasing but people do use it to mean both "twice as fast" (2x) and "faster by double the original speed" (3x).

People will rail about them using it wrong but it's pretty useless when you have to basically guess whether people subscribe to your definition of "right" before you can understand something.

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by jacobolus on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:11PM (#33386536)
The only reason to have “per cent” (%) as a concept is because decimal fractions weren’t invented yet when per cent was first used; until the past few centuries arithmetic was almost exclusively done in terms of integers or ratios (or various mixed units depending on the material being measured). Using 1/100 as a generic unit was a work-around to make numbers less than one easier to compare and recognize by turning them into 2-digit whole numbers instead of needing to do a careful computation to judge between say 5/13 vs. 3/8.

There’s not really any particular advantage to saying 0.005 of the amount (or 1 – 0.995 of the amount) vs. 200 times less. Personally I find it significantly less clear (though not really any more or less “impressive”), because doing mental decimal arithmetic takes some extra effort and leaves more room for confusion. That is, it is easier to reason about multiplying or dividing some quantity by 200 vs. multiplying or dividing by (1 – 0.995).

But the two numbers are reciprocals; this is grade-school rational arithmetic, not some kind of trick.

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by entropicgravity on Saturday October 29, 2022 @10:26AM (#33384283)
The trick is in the word "times". In english every kid learns the "times table" ie "3 times 5 is 15; 6 times 7 is 42" so in this case "200 times less" means x/200. Live and learn, especially in a second language :)
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by FredPret on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:47AM (#33385061)
Crazy thought: mathematical symbols like +, =, and even variables like x, y, etc are recent-ish innovations.

Before that equations were written out in words!

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by HPsquared on Saturday October 29, 2022 @12:40PM (#33385657)
That's interesting, are there any famous examples?
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by drivers99 on Saturday October 29, 2022 @01:45PM (#33386296)
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by cesaref on Saturday October 29, 2022 @03:49PM (#33387394)
I'd guess Netwons Principia would be a good example, given it basically became the founding work of a mathematical approach to physics, gravity, newton's laws of motion etc.

The book is written in Latin and contains diagrams and text to describe each lemma and law. Geometric proof seems to feature heavily!

From wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophi%C3%A6_Naturalis_Pri...

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by jlokier on Saturday October 29, 2022 @09:02PM (#33389759)
Fermat's Last Theorem:

Latin: Cubum autem in duos cubos, aut quadratoquadratum in duos quadratoquadratos & generaliter nullam in infinitum ultra quadratum potestatem in duos eiusdem nominis fas est dividere cuius rei demonstrationem mirabilem sane detexi. Hanc marginis exiguitas non caperet.

Translation: It is impossible to separate a cube into two cubes, or a fourth power into two fourth powers, or in general, any power higher than the second, into two like powers. I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of this, which this margin is too narrow to contain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_Last_Theorem

Fermat's Little Theorem (much more useful in practice):

French:Tout nombre premier mesure infailliblement une des puissances − 1 de quelque progression que ce soit, et l'exposant de la dite puissance est sous-multiple du nombre premier donné − 1; et, après qu'on a trouvé la première puissance qui satisfait à la question, toutes celles dont les exposants sont multiples de l'exposant de la première satisfont tout de même à la question.

Translation: Every prime number [p] divides necessarily one of the powers minus one of any [geometric] progression [x, x², x³, ... ] [that is, there exists a such that p divides xª – 1], and the exponent of this power [a] divides the given prime minus one [divides p – 1]. After one has found the first power [a] that satisfies the question, all those whose exponents are multiples of the exponent of the first one satisfy similarly the question [that is, all multiples of the first a have the same property].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat%27s_little_theorem

Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by euroderf on Saturday October 29, 2022 @12:43PM (#33385692)
This is a horrible language hack perpetrated and perpetuated by people who think a form like "a/one two-hundredth" is some kind of fancy-pants pointy-haired intellectual nonsense that will lose their target audience of the mathematically and grammatically illiterate. Oh well.
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by Angostura on Saturday October 29, 2022 @12:58PM (#33385839)
I thought it might have just meant they needed one third of the amount. Thanks for doing the maths
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by resist_futility on Saturday October 29, 2022 @01:47PM (#33386322)
200 * x(less) = y(previous)
Re:Breakthrough electrolyser development: 200 times less iri... by arantius on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:43PM (#33386822)
I am a native English speaker, but I also despise this phrase. Exactly because it's so awkward that it's hard to truly know what the speaker means. This pattern is unfortunately common. In my experience when used, they mean "reduced by a factor of 200" but they say "200 times less" as...shorthand?