It was around 2016-2017 and I lived in a small town in northern England. Veganism was only just starting to make it into the mainstream; there weren’t any vegan options at any of the fast food places and there was about one freezer worth of vegan alternatives if you went to a large supermarket. I found transitioning over to a meat free diet surprisingly easy. The hardest thing about it wasn’t cravings for foods you couldn’t eat like you might expect. The hardest thing was the social aspect of it.
I slowly found myself being pushed out of social circles. People knew you were vegan so there was no going for a burger or a KFC or any other bonding activities over food. People would cook Linda McCartney sausages if you brought them round to a BBQ but you could tell they didn’t appreciate the extra fuss.
I tried really hard not to be the loud, shouty, fussy vegan but as soon as anyone found out the questions would start. People were curious about why I was vegan and I would tell them. The vast majority of people admitted to feeling bad about eating animals. They didn’t want to think about where their food was coming from and I was a living symbol in front of them that they could stop doing that if they really wanted to. Eating was celebration after hard work and, just with my presence, I was ruining that for them.
At the time I was heavily into fitness and I noticed that achieving my protein intake was really difficult. It would require having 3 to 4 protein shakes a day or doing lots of cooking and prep. All the natural vegan protein sources outside of protein shakes weren’t lean; they also contained lots of carbs or fats. This made hitting macros hard. Food became a chore and I didn’t feel particularly healthy. If anything I felt my health declining.
I went for a walk one day and ran the thought experiment again. I decided that yes, this time I would take responsibility and kill the pig. And that was that. At the end of my walk I went into a Subway, ordered a meatball sub and went home to eat it. I expected to have gastrointestinal distress having not eaten meat for so long but there was nothing. My body went right back to processing it as if I’d never stopped.
The one thing that this whole experience taught me is that food is tied deeply into culture and bonding. I very strongly believe that plant based sources are not going to be the solution to this problem. There is just too much social resistance to overcome.
From my experience, the only way of solving this problem is petri dish meat. Not plant based, but actual meat tissue, grown in factories. Why? People will still get the joy of eating meat and maintain their traditions without the guilt. It also has the potential to actually be better and cheaper than regular meat. If scientists can perfect the processes, they can make it taste like prime beef every time but with a fraction of the economic and environmental costs. It can be sold as an upgrade not a downgrade which is what people see veganism as.
A large number of Indian people are vegetarian (plants + poultry eggs + cow/goat milk), and I've never heard of them having such problems. Why? I certainly didn't have any dietary or nutritional problems when I grew up as a vegetarian there.
The first misconception is contradicted by extensive analysis by health organizations such as [Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics][1]. Healthful vegan diets are no less healthful than healthful non-vegan diets.
The second misconception is about how much protein is needed in a healthful diet. Many people wildly overestimate how much protein a person needs, especially when strength training. It is not difficult to get sufficient protein within a given calorie budget while on a vegan diet, even without using protein supplements. For instance, tofu and seitan have protein to calorie ratios similar to meat, with seitan often having a higher protein to calorie ratio than most meats.
At the end of the day in my experience, a vegan diet is both a lot more hard work and less healthy than a non vegan one. Saying that a vegan diet isn’t any less healthy than a meat eating or vegetarian one is an absolute joke, especially considering there are no vegan foods containing vitamin B12 outside of yeast flakes and artificial supplements.
B12 - Animal products come from animals filled to the brim with B12 supplements, of which a huge majority of global B12 supplements go towards livestock. Also along with over lovely concoctions of antibiotics and drugs.
There's nothing wrong with cutting out the middle-man! Not least when so many flesh eaters are also deficient in B12 themselves. In need of taking the same B-complex as vegans.
https://www.peta.org/living/food/vegan-bodybuilders/
https://www.reddit.com/r/veganbodybuilding/
https://www.reddit.com/r/veganfitness/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAVegan/comments/8y4noz/vegan_...
https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-...
https://plantbasedfaqs.com/protein-in-beans-vs-meat/
And millions of other sources.
Your own source admits that it is difficult to get enough protein in a vegan diet without supplementation. I'm on a medication that increases my insulin response, and I can't eat 400+ grams of carbohydrates a day just to get ~100 grams of protein without both getting fat and putting myself at risk of pre-diabetes.
> https://www.theveganlink.com/resources/30-vegan-recipes-for-...
Many of these are just carbohydrates. One of the recipes is literally just overnight oats, others are full of bread, grains and other carbohydrates with little to no protein at all.
Neither of us are disputing that it is possible to be a vegan bodybuilder. But it is significantly more difficult and extra work compared to being either a meat eater or a vegetarian and to try and claim otherwise does not chime with our experiences or those of others I have encountered. The protein sources are inferior in density, amino acid profile and bioavailability, prep time is longer, more cooking is involved, meals can easily get monotonous and your social life is strained. It is hard work on top of already gruelling work in the gym. I will not be going back.
I can also say without a shadow of a doubt that several of the bodybuilders on that PETA page are using steroids which completely changes the game. Studies have shown that a steroid user doing no training puts on more muscle than a natural bodybuilder training as hard as they can.
But, you know, you're the one who selected a lifestyle where you value your muscles above life of innocent beings, above the future of the nature and cause immense suffering with every meal you take.
You're killing innocent beings. Not just the ones you consume, you're also the reason why wildlife is dissapearing.
> The protein sources are inferior in density, amino acid profile and bioavailability, prep time is longer, more cooking is involved, meals can easily get monotonous and your social life is strained.
When somebody points out that you don't have to do that, you counter argue that it's inconvenient to prepare vegan meal? As if your convenience was somehow relevant.
> It is hard work on top of already gruelling work in the gym.
I bet you look awesome.
No I valued a lifestyle where I felt healthier and could perform at a higher level outside of the gym. But performing at that level requires me to train hard in the gym otherwise I am prone to bouts of depression.
> You're killing innocent beings.
So are you going to act like the food chain doesn’t exist anymore and all animals are innocent beings who don’t eat other animals. That’s some Disney Princess shit.
> Not just the ones you consume, you're also the reason why wildlife is disappearing.
Ok but you can’t label all of this at the door of omnivores.
Presumably you are typing this on a device which mined the earth for rare minerals so I hope you are willing to give that device up. And if you have any kind of vehicle other than a bicycle I hope you’re willing to give that up too. When you get sick, I hope you are willing to eschew medicine as it has almost certainly been tested on animals (most likely mice) at some point before making it to market.
Every time new construction is undertaken habitats are destroyed. So I hope you are ok sleeping in a tent and not a house or do you just want the rest of the growing population to sleep rough whilst you are excluded from having to make this particular sacrifice? You’re also guilty of killing animals unless you’re living in a hut wearing home spun robes. It’s just more abstract for you so you can delude yourself into thinking you’re one of the holy ones.
> When somebody points out that you don't have to do that, you counter argue that it's inconvenient to prepare vegan meal? As if your convenience was somehow relevant
First you’ve cherry picked the sentence and disregarded the rest. And yes, my convenience (and everyone else’s) is relevant. Humans are wired to conserve energy. I am not going to waste my energy unnecessarily if there are more convenient options available. Presumably you do the same or are you still taking your clothes down to the river to scrub them rather than using the washing machine?
It sounds you're just suppresing your depression. Maybe you should direct your efforts to solving the problems causing you depression. It will catch you sooner or later, you know.
> like the food chain doesn’t exist anymore
We're at the top of the food chain, destroying everything below us. And we're no longer part of the nature, we're above it. If you feel you're like a lion, why don't you lick your balls and eat your young?
> Presumably you are typing this on a device ...
Nobody argues we should go back to the stone age. It's not possible and not practical. Eating plant-based is, and it solves a lot of current problems (co2, methane, biodiversity loss, droughts, needless suffering, ...).
> Every time new construction ...
Urban and built-up land is 1.5 mil km2, land for animal agriculture is 40 mil. km2 ( https://ourworldindata.org/land-use ).
> First you’ve cherry picked the sentence and disregarded the rest
I found there nothing of value to comment on, sorry.
Your arrogance is truly astounding. Not only do you know what’s best for my diet and lifestyle apparently you know what’s best for my mental health as well. I’m going to go eat a burger today just because of your attitude. Good luck with your crusade.
I don't know what's good for you, and don't pretend to know, I'm just speaking from my own experience.
About plant-based diet, I'm just able to comprehend and accept the facts and modify my own behaviour where needed.
> I’m going to go eat a burger today just because of your attitude
No, you're going to eat it because you value the taste and your own convenience above everything else.
> Good luck with your crusade.
Good luck with your gym buddies, hope they'll appreciate the gains.
You know, it's a viewpoint that's been desperately ignored in HN comment threads in recent years, that's why I decided to start commenting on it after almost 10 years of lurking.
I may make some people very angry, to the point of personal attacks. That's fine.
If you plant a seed, it may grow. We'll see. Better than doing nothing and watching the world burn.
The other thing to consider is amino acid profile. Milk and eggs have a full amino acid profile but vegan sources are normally incomplete. This means to get all the protein your body needs you have to consume multiple protein sources. And bioavailability: just because you consume 1g of protein doesn’t mean your body can necessarily use that entire gram. Vegan proteins tend to have the lowest bioavailability, often in the 0.7 to 0.8 range meaning you have to consume more of them for the same result. Which is problematic as it means you’re now consuming more carbs and fats knocking your macros further out of whack.
It is doable, it is just very hard work. Here is a vegan bodybuilder with 13.7% body fat percentage after 4 years.
https://www.menshealth.com/nutrition/a33807797/bodybuilder-v...
The other thing complicating matters nowadays is steroids, SARMS and TRT. If people are on them it makes life significantly easier: there were studies done that showed people on steroids doing absolutely nothing (no workouts whatsoever) still built more muscle than people who were natural (no steroids) doing hours of hard bodybuilding gym workouts. They are absolutely rampant, far more than people realise. For what it’s worth looking at this guy, I don’t think he’s doing roids. His physique is achievable without them. But I might be wrong.
Also, heart disease is absolutely rampant in India. So not the best country to be using as an example.
Ok yes, optimal no. You cant say a diet (vegan) that requires artificial produced supplementation (vitamin b12) in order for you to survive is the optimal diet for humans. It just doesn’t make any sense. If our ancestors ate vegan diets before we had mastered science we literally would not be alive having this conversation because they would have all perished of anaemia.
> on top of that the longest living populations are mostly eating plant-based diet.
The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan. If anything, the blue zones have a higher proportion of fish intake than elsewhere.
And I went off on the bodybuilder tangent because the original commenter specifically asked about a line in my story which was to do with me hitting my macros and trying to find lean protein sources in order to do that. At the time, I was doing bodybuilding and CrossFit so it was relevant to the question asked.
You know animals don't produce B12 as well, right? They come from bacteria in the soil.
> The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan.
Take a look at the Seven-day Adventist study (the population with the highest longevity ever recorded). Between this group, the ones excluding all animal products from the diet actually live longer than the rest.
Good luck with your soil recipes.
> Take a look at the Seven-day Adventist study (the population with the highest longevity ever recorded). Between this group, the ones excluding all animal products from the diet actually live longer than the rest.
Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate.
Farm animals eat tons of added B12 in their feed.
Grazing animals get their B12 from dirt, because they don't wash their greens.
If you purchase B12 fortified vegan foods, you don't have to eat supplements.
When you wash your salads and don't eat fortified foods, then you should eat B12 supplements ... there are vegan B12 supplements from algae on the market.
Wtf.
> Not true. Pesco-vegetarians had a lower death rate.
They are not statistically distinguishable.
> The longest living populations are eating diets that are heavy on plants yes, but not vegetarian or vegan.
The people longest living at the adventist church are pesco-vegetarians which are not vegetarians as far as I’m concerned. Also as far as I’m aware, there is no significant difference between the Adventist church goers in terms of life expectancy and the other blue zones, which are also consuming small to moderate amounts of meat, dairy, fish and alcohol.
It’s like saying getting vitamin D fortified milk is superior to taking the fortification yourself.
I bet this cashes out into the appeal to fallacy. Frankly I see no reason why the optimal human diet can’t be some undiscovered 100% artificial diet that we can synthesize from scratch. To say otherwise, including your b12 belief, leads to some pretty hilarious reductios.
We're really only on the second wave of veganism right now. I can't say exactly when the first wave "ended", but I'd say the second wave started to roll in after 2010. But in this second wave, there is a lot of culture being developed that I believe will sustain a third wave. Whereas the first wave had a bunch of early adopters who had very odd food habits (i.e. eating barely palatable food or eating 50 bananas a day), this second wave is developing new food culture. There are large communities like the Vegan Soul Food Group. Groups like this share recipes and tips for making vegan food and, frankly, it's damn good. Not everything is the best nutritionally, but that's not why everyone is adopting veganism in the first place. There are also high profile chefs (and burgeoning chefs too) who are coming on the scene. Gaz Oakley, Yeung Man, Andrew Bernard, Vegan Bunny Chef. There are all sorts of accounts on tiktok with culturally-specific vegan foods - Mexican, Indian, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Ghanaian. Not to mention all of the "accidentally vegan" foods that already existed before.
These people are leading the way to a vibrant vegan food culture. They're developing new traditions and practices right before our very eyes. And a lot of people are joining in as a result. The younger generation is much less obsessed with this sort of "tradition perfectionism" where every element has to be there to make it a tradition. They were much more willing to change and adapt traditions to fit their own personal and moral beliefs.
The third wave, I think, is going to come as a result of what you're talking about. We have some great things like nut-based cheese, but also on the horizon (beyond meat ;) are things like vegan casein and whey, which will make it even easier to be vegan. At that point, the third wave will be as if people were never vegan in the first place.
They do not want “new food culture” they want the existing culture but more environmentally friendly. You aren’t going to pry the burgers out of their hands no matter how good your beyond burger is. But if you make a petri dish burger that tastes better than a dead cow you might stand a chance of them getting behind it.
You can say the younger generation doesn’t care about old traditions but people have been saying this throughout time. Young people have a habit of growing old and more conservative when they gain more life experience and realise that the traditions they rallied against in the youth were actually developed for a good reason.
I suppose with sufficient vegan base the political will to remove (huge) subsidies for meat/dairy industry will materialize.
It simply doesn't make sense that meat burger/milk is cheaper than plant-based burger/milk now.
You need 100x more land to produce same amount of calories (beef vs. peas). Removing subsidies will drive prices of meat/dairy up, and plant based food prices will go down (as seen now with increasing competition and growing vegan movement).
With higher prices of meat/dairy many more people will switch.
As things are now, we need to remove subsidies for all unsustainable stuff, meat/dairy/oil/plastics/agri poisons ... we can't pretend forever that (negative) externalities don't exist.
I know who my money would be on if vegans decide they want to try and overthrow the country.
> we can't pretend forever that (negative) externalities don't exist.
I agree but like I said, I think petri dish meat is the answer which would most likely be even less resource intensive than plant based alternatives when perfected. You only use the exact resources you need for each Petri dish and you can literally build a meat factory for every city. Next to zero transport emissions.
There is a good reason why those farming subsidies exist. It does not end well when people are hungry en masse.
If we'll succeed in making them, it may take decades. Like finding the bugs to eat the plastics. That also takes forever.
And meanwhile the show goes on ... and on ...
Obviously all the death will significantly reduce the population so that’s one way of temporarily solving the problem. Although the loss of brain power might set back finding the actual solutions that we’ve already mentioned so swings and roundabouts.
Plus there is more that a cow is used for than just ground beef. 99% of the cow is used for things. You'd have to bring a capable alternative to market for each and every part of the cow that currently sees a use if you want to end pasturalism, and right now even coming up with an alternative to the most common use people think of when it comes to a cow is hard enough.
They are huge, they are not ridiculous. They literally stop wars breaking out.
1. Just eating less meat would go along way without the social awkwardness. Have a burger with friends once a week who cares. But reduce otherwise.
2. I’ve been drinking huel and it has good nutrients and lots of protein. Might be easier to be vegan without feeling like trash these days.
1. This is something I would consider unlike the ridiculous points above some of the absolute militant vegans are trying to make. If I was going to do something again it would be more like this rather than strict veganism.
2. Huel is great. I drank it a lot at the time and still drink it today. It’s pricey though.
I think it’s a brilliant thought experiment as (providing you’re not completely desensitised) it makes you sit and think whether you truly want something or if there are alternatives out there you’d be happy with it. And it forces you to take personal responsibility for the consequences of the things you do want.
If you want to enact the change you expect to enact by going vegetarian, then move to a district with a slaughterhouse and show up to local government meetings every day to raise hell until such land use is made illegal in this jurisdiction. If you rely on consumer demand alone, industry will just find either nonconsumer demand or will use its ability to strongly influence government to keep it in existence in perpetuity.