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Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by m-p-3 on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:42PM (#33352420)
So one way or another, the population will reach its breaking point, and the Constitution will change.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by epicureanideal on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:50PM (#33352479)
If a population not significantly a majority of the country “reaches a breaking point”, that sounds like it would not go well.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by rybosome on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:04PM (#33352580)
It won’t. This is going to be a decade of strife and instability.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:26PM (#33352708)
> This is going to be a decade of strife and instability.

“decade” is quite optimistic.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by UberFly on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:02PM (#33352561)
No, more like one of the broken parts will create their own Constitution.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by mlindner on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:10PM (#33352624)
The US tried that already in 1861, it didn't go well. Also you're advocating for the idea that Democracy is a bad idea here.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dylan604 on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:38PM (#33352777)
Just because it was tried and "failed" once before doesn't mean that people don't still believe that it can be tried and made to work the next time.

The concept of a split US is not unattractive to a much larger number of people than you might be willing to give credit. There's also the people that will support a movement not because they fully support it, but mainly just because it's screwing the "system" and watching the chaos.

Back in the mid-90s, I was a video journalist covering the Republic of Texas[0] movement to secede (or in their words to recognize the illegality of Texas being annexed into the Union). It was very interesting how it was successfully progressing through the court system, but then went to crazy town with all of the liens, attempting to print their own money, and the kidnappings. However, there were the typical people denouncing their US citizenship and signing up to join to the Republic of Texas. The thing that surprised me was the governments of other countries signed up in recognition of the RoT as a legit government. I get that individual peoples wanting to see the world burn, but seeing governments sign up for it was what got me.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements#Repu...

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by wincy on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:42AM (#33353199)
Could a state democratically elect to secede from the union? What if a National vote was held and a majority agreed to split up the USA? At what point could we democratically all agree we think the other side is crazy, and ask to peacefully take our ball and go home?
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by _-david-_ on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:19AM (#33353423)
The 10th amendment basically says any power not granted to the federal government and not banned by the Constitution is left to the state. Secession is never mentioned in the Constitution and as such states have every right to vote to leave.

The Supreme Court has previously erroneously ruled that the federal government had the authority to stop it despite that power not having been granted to the federal government.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by HaZeust on Thursday October 27, 2022 @02:42AM (#33354031)
Texas v. White was a lot more complex than that; Specifically, the court claimed that the Constitution, in its effort to "form a more perfect union," precluded secession. Secession was inherently unconstitutional, because its foundations are that the "more perfect" union is imperfect and not salvageable by any action - short of divorce.

Supreme Court Justice Salmon P. Chase in 1869, Chief Justice at the time:

"When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States."

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by _-david-_ on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:43AM (#33358265)
I understand what the Supreme Court said. There are a few problems with it though.

1. The founders wholly rejected that notion. The Declaration of Independence says

>When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation

>That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

>But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

The Colonies were allowed to rid themselves of the British Government but the states aren't allowed to rid themselves of the American government? That makes no sense. The Founding Fathers would have had no issue with secession. Either the American Revolution was illegitimate or the southern one was legitimate. The British Empire made the same argument that the Supreme Court did. The British were wrong just like the Court.

2. If a state cannot leave, then how did the Southern States become military districts? Where in the Constitution does it give the federal government the right to strip states of statehood?

3. There was consent of the states who left to leave. I'm not sure why another state needs to be involved since the 10th amendment doesn't require the consent of other states.

4. If you have a glass of water. You take a sip of water you still have a glass of water. If a state leaves the Union you still have a union. If changing the amount of state destroys the union then I am not sure how adding to the Union does not do the same.

The Supreme Court ruled this way to provide cover for the unconstitutional actions of the federal government. They banned actions that were both allowed and they themselves did. To use a word from the Deceleration of Independence, that is despotism.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dylan604 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:22AM (#33358928)
>2. If a state cannot leave, then how did the Southern States become military districts? Where in the Constitution does it give the federal government the right to strip states of statehood?

This was a key point that the 90s Republic of Texas movement keyed on, and they would tell anyone within earshot about why all Texas flags in courts are trimmed in gold fringe.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dylan604 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:54AM (#33353678)
>Could a state democratically elect to secede from the union?

It was supposed to be part of the stipulations Texas had in the agreement to re-join the Union. At least that is part of Texas folklore. However, they were coming at it from a different direction in saying that the annexing was not done legally, so it should just naturally revert back to how it was before the illegal annexing.

We're actually seeing something similar but different currently in how part of Oregon wants to become part of Idaho.

>What if a National vote was held and a majority agreed to split up the USA?

It might not be a national vote, but a civil war ending in a stale mate would essentially do just that. Think Handmaid's Tale's Gilead.

> At what point could we democratically all agree we think the other side is crazy, and ask to peacefully take our ball and go home?

I gladly suggest donating Texas and Florida as the land of the new territory for the "crazy" for which you speak. Anyone not wanting to be part of there rules can move to the other states, and anyone wanting to be part of it can move in. Just let me move out of Texas before the mad rush

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by rayiner on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:27PM (#33352723)
“Democracy” isn’t a one-dimensional issue. How you make decisions (majority vote) is one dimension. But who makes the decision—what group does the voting and is bound by the results of voting—is another dimension. Many countries balance these issues by having different levels of voting. Distinct communities wishing to govern themselves is a nearly universal phenomenon. My country exists because we didn’t want to be in a body politic with Pakistanis. It was our right to decide we should have our own government where we, and not they, voted on the laws that governed us. Dismissively comparing all such impulses to the Civil War is intellectually lazy.

Self determination is a widely recognized political right. If folks in Alabama don’t want folks in California to have a say in their affairs, they have that right. That must be balanced against other practicalities of course. But letting different groups govern themselves is conceptually part of “democracy” just as much as “one person one vote.”

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by mistermann on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:09AM (#33352964)
If the secret of the dimensionality of reality was ever to seep out into the broad memeplex (particularly if the idea caught on with young people), I have a feeling our zoo keepers would have a bit of trouble on their hands.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by kepler1 on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:52PM (#33352872)
On what issues are we going to reach a breaking point that calls for Constitutional change?
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by HaZeust on Thursday October 27, 2022 @02:49AM (#33354080)
I firmly believe it'll be a catalyst that reminds "The People" that they were MEANT to be the fourth check and balance, and that the check and balance system was NOT abstracted for just political institutions to provide leverage against each other's tension.

The founder of the idea of "checks and balances" themselves (Montesquieu, Secondat) said it, the Founding Fathers who were influenced by the two (Madison) wanted to charter it (Federalist n. 10), and Hobbes argued for it in Leviathan. The writing has been on the wall for CENTURIES to include The People as its own entity within the ontological power-struggle of American politics - we were just led to forget our own history.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by paganel on Thursday October 27, 2022 @03:18AM (#33354287)
As a big fan of Jean-Jacques myself I also dig the volonté générale/will of the People, the trouble is that it's quite difficult to say what that "will" really is, first, and second, and just as important, who the People actually is.

To be honest I don't think that in these past ~250 years we've made that big of a progress in answering those two fundamental questions. I mean, the US Constitution starts with the very rousseau-ist "We the People of the United States", but a major part of the population living in said United States wasn't considered (fully) part of said People until the mid-19th century, some say that even now that process is an ongoing project.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by amanaplanacanal on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:29AM (#33356519)
The biggest issue in my mind is the potential for the election deniers to gain real power. If elections no longer work as intended, I don’t think anybody can predict what the outcome will be.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by stale2002 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:15AM (#33353009)
If there is a strong enough popular support for taking more extreme actions, then there should be strong enough support to change the constitution the normal way.

For people who want the constitution changed, thats the dilemma they have to deal with. If they don't have enough support to do it the regular way, then maybe the more silly and extreme solutions aren't justified either.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by hardtke on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:02AM (#33353321)
The primary flaw in the constitution is that smaller states have disproportionate power (Senate and Electoral College) and will never give up or dilute this power.

Even worse, equal representation for each state in the Senate is literally the only part of the constitution that cannot be amended.

So even with overwhelming popular support there is an absolute barrier to reform.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by vkou on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:27AM (#33353487)
On the bright side, senatorial races can't be gerrymandered.

On the less bright side, voter suppression and disenfranchisement can fix them a senate race as well as any other.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by guelo on Thursday October 27, 2022 @04:39AM (#33354869)
Senatorial races were gerrymandered in the 19th century when they were converting territories into states. We are stuck with the results of those political battles forever.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by sokoloff on Thursday October 27, 2022 @05:56AM (#33355402)
The Senate composition can be amended legally. It does require the consent of any state which would lose proportional representation, placing a strong practical hurdle but there is no legal barring of that amendment.