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Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by jfengel on Friday October 21, 2022 @11:10AM (#33288817)
That's right: the "collapse" interpretation is an approximation.

You can derive if from the MWI. We already know that the "worlds" separate and almost completely cease interacting. The interactions decrease to the order of "two to the power of Avogadro's number" almost immediately. The collapse interpretation rounds that to zero (at some arbitrary point).

To make that more concrete you have to add a term to the equations, making it theoretically testable, but it's remarkable that anybody could manage to test it in practice. It's clever to use a neutrino detector -- something designed to measure ludicrously small amounts of interactions.

I don't think anybody is surprised by the results, just that they could get any. The un-physical arbitrariness of the cutoff caused problems from the get-go.

I was going to say that it doesn't make MWI any more palatable, though I suppose it does. They've detected the other branches, albeit in a very indirect way. They're real. But they're just as inaccessible as they ever were.

You still need the concept of decoherence to make it work. The unstable equilibrium can't hold for large objects. That's both mathematically and physically sound.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:26PM (#33289822)
> You can derive if from the MWI.

Not as an actual physical process, no. "Collapse" in the MWI just means that, once the "worlds" have decohered, within each "world" the wave function can be collapsed to the one that describes the measurement result observed in that "world", for purposes of predicting future results. But in the MWI this is just a mathematical convenience and doesn't correspond to anything physically happening.

In the theories being tested by the experiments described in this article, though, collapse is an actual physical process: there is only one "world". This contradicts the MWI.

> They've detected the other branches, albeit in a very indirect way.

What experiments are you referring to here?

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by whimsicalism on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:43PM (#33290847)
> doesn't correspond to anything physically happening

It corresponds to the inner product of the two branches of the wavefunction going to 0 due to physical phenomenon.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by pdonis on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:47PM (#33290893)
That is decoherence, not collapse. Collapse, as a physical process, would be all of the branches but one ceasing to exist.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by whimsicalism on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:57PM (#33291035)
Oh I misread your comment - I thought you were referring to decoherence as the mathematical convenience. Now that I see that it was collapse, definitely agree.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by dchichkov on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:30PM (#33289881)
If quantum computers would work, it would be very difficult to explain "where" the computation happens without having some sort of MWI into picture. But if, somehow, quantum computers keep their noise levels up without producing any interesting acceleration I'll expect that a theory would emerge at some point explaining that. And it may disambiguate which interpretation is the one.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by tsimionescu on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:33PM (#33290738)
Quantum computers are easy to explain in CI as well: they simply exploit certain numerical properties of complex-valued probabilities (unlike the real-valued probabilities of classical probabilistic Turing machines).
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by mjan22640 on Friday October 21, 2022 @12:56PM (#33290297)
Could the other branches be our dark matter?
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by jfengel on Friday October 21, 2022 @01:48PM (#33290912)
No. They don't behave at all like dark matter. Among other things, there's no reason for them to be distributed in a halo, nor for some galaxies to lack them.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by plutonorm on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:16PM (#33291265)
Broad statements, do you have the time to elaborate?
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by simonh on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:34PM (#33291473)
Dark matter affects some galaxies, but the rotation of others is completely explained by the observable matter. Why would one galaxy be influenced by its many worlds twins, but not another?
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by jameshart on Friday October 21, 2022 @02:55PM (#33291734)
Sci-fi plot concept answer: because one galaxy is populated by sentient life, and the other isn’t.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by tremon on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:22PM (#33292619)
Quarantine by Greg Egan explores this concept (the many-worlds theory, without the dark matter).
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by plutonorm on Saturday October 22, 2022 @08:26AM (#33297751)
Well because that galaxy in that position might be a low probability event - not many universes have that galaxy at that position. So therefore that galaxy appears to have less dark matter.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by gus_massa on Friday October 21, 2022 @04:57PM (#33292953)
The Milky Way and other similar galaxies look like spiral drawn in a thick 2D disk.

The dark matter halo looks like an invisible 3D ball around the thick 2D disk.

Something like https://www.google.com/search?q=dark+matter+halo&tbm=isch

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by tremon on Saturday October 22, 2022 @04:44PM (#33302064)
I thought that the main mechanism that produces the 2D disk of matter in galaxies was gravity, and that dark matter is equally affected by gravity as normal matter? What is the prevailing theory as to why dark matter accretion around galaxies is different from normal matter?

(edit: to answer my own question, the rabbit hole starts here: https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/485214/ -- basically, accretion happens because light matter can radiate and shed its (kinetic) energy that way. Dark matter does not radiate so it remains in a higher-energy state)

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by phkahler on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:07PM (#33294667)
There's no reason for any dark matter to be distributed in a halo. Maybe it makes some math work better for the observations but nobody offers a dynamical explanation of how it would come to be a halo.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by raattgift on Saturday October 22, 2022 @06:29AM (#33297050)
> There's no reason for any dark matter to be distributed in a halo.

This was one of the more eye-catching statements in this thread. To be blunt, you're wrong. A straightforward and almost inevitable dynamical explanation has been available (and explored in ever greater detail) since at least the mid-1990s, driven in part by the Saskatoon experiment and subsequently supported by BOOMERanG's observation of the first acoustic peak, and many others lines of evidence since then (see [1] for a less-heavy explanation than what follows).

You may wish to check this chapter from a forthcoming graduate-level textbook in galactic dynamics from well-known galactic astrophysicist Jo Bovy <http://astro.utoronto.ca/~bovy/>, which you can read for free at his site: <https://galaxiesbook.org/chapters/IV-01.-Formation-DM-Halos....>.

There are of course other already-completed textbooks. For example, one can find an excellent pedagogic (if advanced) treatment of primordial Gaussian Random Fields[2] as applied to halo formation in chapter 7 of Mo, van den Bosch & White (2010) <https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/abs/galaxy-formation-an...> (you can find the chapter on scy hob via its DOI if you don't have institutional or otherwise affordable access).

- --

[1] https://lweb.cfa.harvard.edu/~deisenst/acousticpeak/acoustic... from <https://astronomy.fas.harvard.edu/people/daniel-eisenstein>

[2] If you're more visually inclined and can't find the illustrated version of Mo et al., see the diagrams on p.3-5 of this slide deck on GRFs <https://www.astro.rug.nl/~weygaert/tim1publication/lss2016/l...> from Rien van de Weijgaert of the Kapteyn Institute at the University of Groningen.

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by infogulch on Friday October 21, 2022 @08:42PM (#33294510)
If other 'branches' are still detectable, then they're probably detectable by more than one means; say, gravitationally. Could this be an explanation of dark matter? That is, dark matter is the sum of tiny gravitational interactions between many mostly-split branches of the wave function.
Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by cwillu on Sunday October 23, 2022 @02:00PM (#33308844)
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/34993/reversing-...

“What actually happens in an experiment with electrons is kind of interesting. Since photons are massless they are easy to excite if they have long wavelength and hence low energy. Whenever an electron gets accelerated many "soft" (i.e., long wavelength) photons get emitted. But if the acceleration is weak, the photons have such long wavelength that they provide little information concerning which path, and interference is possible.

It is the same with gravitons. Except the probability of emitting a "hard" graviton (with short enough wavelength to distinguish the paths) is far, far smaller than for photons, and therefore gravitational decoherence is extremely weak.”

Re:Experiments Spell Doom for Decades-Old Explanation of Qua... by jamiek88 on Friday October 21, 2022 @09:17PM (#33294737)
> two to the power of Avogadro's number"

So you’re saying… theres a chance…? :)