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Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by dragontamer on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @12:48PM (#33264777)
I wouldn't say I'm very well studied in Pirates, but I've played "Sid Meyer's Pirates" and loved it.

A common theme in the game is that there are 4 great powers of the Caribbean sea: the British, the French, the Dutch, and the Spanish. Different cities have different allegiances (and as the Navies of the respective powers move, those cities could change sides). There's also trade winds to account for, the value of plunder (wheat, guns, and other goods you capture). There's also different statistics for different ships... and those statistics depend on the direction on of the wind (the canoe being the fastest against the wind for example).

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Anyway, where I'm going with this is that you're a Pirate in the game. However, your first goal is almost always to obtain a Letter of Marque from one of the great powers. The game even allows you to obtain a letter of marque from all 4 great powers (though unrealistic, its kinda funny to think you're a Privateer authorized to plunder all other powers)

This is a bit of a sarcastic wink that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" really isn't much. You go off on your sea vessel, you attack trade ships and plunder them. The Privateer just has a piece of paper (the Letter of Marque) that shows that you're doing it on behalf of a power.

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John Paul Jones is perhaps the most famous American Privateer. In 1776, when the Revolutionary War started, John Paul Jones and his ship was off in Europe on other business. Hearing that war has been declared, he began to attack the British Isles on behalf of the USA.

John Paul Jones was captured however and charged for Piracy. Fortunately, he had an American Flag flying on his ship, so he was "legitimate".

Alas: the American Flag was described to him through letters. So he really didn't know what it looked like. He just... kinda drew the flag as best he could: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis_flag (13 stripes of red-white-and blue, with 13 stars on the top left? Gotcha. Totally the American flag, right?). At least, the Dutch thought it was an American flag (probably a political statement on behalf of the Dutch against the British, but hey, politics always existed).

Anyway, my point is that a Letter of Marque was a big deal, making these "piracy" events legitimate. If you're just randomly attacking the British and stealing stuff, you're a Pirate. But if you're doing that because of the 1776 Revolutionary war (and you have a "flag", albeit a poorly drawn incorrect one + the piece of paper / signature from the US Congress stating the Letter of Marque), you're a lawful combatant and treated as such.

Piracy probably never really died off. It just became legalized in the weirdest way possible.

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Age of Sail, in English-speaking countries, is romanticized with Spanish enemies (see Capt. Hook, who is clearly wearing Spanish Garb + a Spanish Galleon). Because the Spanish ruled the seas in the 1400s, while the British were the upstarts. Fighting "dirty" by using Pirates (and later privateers) is just the natural result of the politics of that age. We can reverse-engineer the age of sail somewhat through our legends and stories that we've passed down over the centuries.

From an American perspective: we romanticize the British/Dutch trading company as the enemy somewhat. (See Pirates of the Caribbean), because "our" privateers/pirates attacked British ships.

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Given that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" was simply political pieces of paper, I would not be surprised that Pirates were all over the US Colonies from the 1600s. The 13 colonies issued over 1700 letters of Marque during the Revolutionary War IIRC, suggesting a significant number of "skilled sea plunderers" in the colonies, so to speak, of varying sizes. No, the USA never had a good enough Navy to really fight the British on equal terms during the Revolutionary war, but these Privateers were pivotal in harassing / annoying those trade routes / supply routes.

Those skills didn't just magically appear in 1776 during the war. Those people "were already" pirates, and just chose to support the Revolutionary War and begin to organize into the USA's nascent Navy. There's no documentation of this beforehand because those people were likely illegal pirates, so its a "purposeful" forgetting of those old crimes in order to bootstrap the early Navy. IMO anyway.

But yeah, not much may be known about "Pirates". But the legal "Privateer" is extremely well documented and well studied. And you can definitely see and feel the "wink-wink and nod" towards Piracy if you go through the historical records.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by exalted1ne on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @01:40PM (#33265454)
I do not have a lot of expertise into the above nor Sid Meyers, but man, I just want to say that I appreciate the insight/opinion. Thank you for the well written response.
Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by twic on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @01:43PM (#33265495)
English wikipedia:

> Sir Francis Drake (c. 1540 – 28 January 1596)[3] was an English explorer, sea captain, privateer, slave trader,[4][5][6] naval officer, and politician.

Spanish wikipedia:

> Francis Drake (Tavistock, Inglaterra, 1540-Portobelo, Panamá, 28 de enero de 1596) fue un corsario, explorador, comerciante de esclavos, político y vicealmirante inglés.

The two languages understandably place different relative emphasis on Drake's various occupations.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by dragontamer on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @03:08PM (#33266544)
> corsario

Good grief. The word "Corsair" in English means Pirate (or at least: Pirate Ship), but the word "corsario" in Spanish apparently means privateer.

Apparently this "Pirate vs Privateer" issue turns into a fundamental linguistic issue depending on what side you were on in the 1500s age of sail.

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> vicealmirante

I'm amused that Captain translates into Vice Admiral.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by svachalek on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @03:50PM (#33267124)
Interesting, capitán is definitely a word (yo no soy marinero, as they say in La Bamba)
Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by jjk166 on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:43PM (#33267678)
> I'm amused that Captain translates into Vice Admiral.

Francis Drake actually was an English Vice Admiral. The Spanish wikipedia is just more precise than the English one which merely calls him a naval officer.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @11:19PM (#33270438)
"Now take Sir Francis Drake / The Spanish all despise him. / But to the British, he's a hero / And they idolize him."
Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by bombcar on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @02:50PM (#33266327)
There was (is?) a strong suspicion on the part of the British that the whole 1776 kerfuffle was likely caused by the colony being infested with pirates and smugglers, and not liking being cracked down upon.
Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by tomrod on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @04:31PM (#33267568)
I'm going to channel my inner thoughts right now:

wut-literal taxation without representation

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by adastra22 on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @06:55PM (#33268869)
I mean, that’s kinda the opinion on the American side as well, no? The Sons of Liberty were a loose association of smugglers, undoubtably with some pirate connections. The Boston tea party was about lowering the tax on tea, not raising it, which impacted the black market these guys were selling in.
Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @11:24PM (#33270479)
It mainly deals with after the revolution began (though covers a fair bit from before, if I recall), but Robert H Patton's Patriot Pirates is a good read (and also dispels the myth that private citizens couldn't own canon and "warships" around the time the 2nd amendment was created).
Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by mcv on Thursday October 20, 2022 @06:28AM (#33272733)
> The Boston tea party was about lowering the tax on tea, not raising it, which impacted the black market these guys were selling in.

Wait, really? I've always understood they were protesting increased tariffs cutting into legitimate trade profits.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by adastra22 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @06:40AM (#33272787)
The Tea Act raised taxes overall from a British perspective, but due to the way it was structured it actually lowered taxes paid by the colonies in trade with the rest of the empire.

“The act retained the duty on imported tea at its existing rate, but, since the company was no longer required to pay an additional tax in England, the Tea Act effectively lowered the price of the East India Company’s tea in the colonies.”

https://www.history.com/topics/american-revolution/tea-act

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by mcv on Thursday October 20, 2022 @07:23AM (#33273047)
So the whole revolution was based on a lie!

Interestingly, lots of revolutions are, and don't always lead to what most supporters intended. I once heard that the Belgian independence from Netherland in the 1830s was driven largely by French influence, while many Flemish just wanted a more liberal government and better representation, and not actual independence.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by adastra22 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @08:13AM (#33273463)
Not really related to the Tea Act per se, but the revolutionary war was NOT a revolution at first. It was, from the very beginning, more of what you would classify as a rebellious act. An attempt to renegotiate the terms of colonial rule with mother England.

Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" changed all that. It's only after that pamphlet was published that you see the other founding fathers taking anti-monarchy stances and advocating for total independence. The Declaration of Independence was, at best, edited by Thomas Jefferson, but almost certainly written by Thomas Paine in my mind.

It's funny because Thomas Paine was an englishman who'd only just recently arrived in the colonies.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by kilolima on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @02:55PM (#33266390)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend_(Spain)

Related to your comment on Captain Hook.

Thanks for the very informative post!

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by cafard on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @03:18PM (#33266667)
Did the Spanish rule the sea in the 1400s? They didn't have full control of the peninsula until 1492.

The US frigates had a good record against British frigates in the War of 1812, but they couldn't have fought a major engagement with the Royal Navy. The privateers were tremendously effective then.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by jjk166 on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:30PM (#33268161)
> John Paul Jones is perhaps the most famous American Privateer. In 1776, when the Revolutionary War started, John Paul Jones and his ship was off in Europe on other business. Hearing that war has been declared, he began to attack the British Isles on behalf of the USA.

John Paul Jones had been living in the american colonies for a few years before the war broke out. He was a member of the American Philosophical Society in Philadelphia in 1774, and personally knew Richard Henry Lee. When the war broke out in 1775 he joined the American navy and was a lieutenant serving on the USS Alfred, the first ship to be commissioned by the Continental Navy. While many of the missions he commanded involved commerce raiding, he was never a privateer and never carried Letters of Marque.

> Alas: the American Flag was described to him through letters. So he really didn't know what it looked like.

John Paul Jones was actually the very first person to hoist America's official naval ensign, one of his duties on the maiden voyage of the Alfred. It was actually Ben Franklin who didn't know what an American flag looked like, and told the dutch it had blue stripes.

> John Paul Jones was captured however and charged for Piracy. Fortunately, he had an American Flag flying on his ship, so he was "legitimate".

He was not captured and charged with Piracy, he was in a Dutch port and the Brtish asked he be handed over as a pirate, instead of as a commander of an American vessel. He knew perfectly well what an American naval ensign looked like, and had been flying one, but it was shot away in battle. In fact the whole ship had been sunk and he transferred over to a British ship captured in the same battle. Further, this event occurred in 1779, more than 3 years after Jones had joined the American Navy, and was actually the last American ship that he would command.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by jaclaz on Thursday October 20, 2022 @05:36AM (#33272457)
Side note (about privateers and Benjamin Franklin):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29268390

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by User23 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @12:48AM (#33270925)
> This is a bit of a sarcastic wink that the difference between a "Pirate" and a "Privateer" really isn't much. You go off on your sea vessel, you attack trade ships and plunder them. The Privateer just has a piece of paper (the Letter of Marque) that shows that you're doing it on behalf of a power.

Amusingly, the US Congress still has the enumerated authority to issue letters of marque. If I ever become filthy rich I'm totally going to bribe^H^H^H^H^Hcontribute to a congressional representative's campaign to get one.

Re:A Lot of What Is Known about Pirates Is Not True (2017) by fipar on Thursday October 20, 2022 @11:04AM (#33275828)
That was the second original computer game I got in my life. Or perhaps the first, because I got two on at the same time: Pirates!, and Sub battle simulator.

I loved both, but I have very fond memories of Pirates! I must have played it for an unhealthy number of hours. I even remember going to a neighborhood photocopier to make copies of the map, because I wanted to make different notes on it depending on which historical period I chose to start the game in.

Not much to add to what you said, but thanks for bringing back those memories!