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Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by akomtu on Saturday October 15, 2022 @01:25PM (#33216727)
I thought CDC, its head in particular, is the PR branch of Big Pharma, based on how they behaved over the pandemic. Big Pharma's product was mandatory to use, or you'd be fired from your job: no many industries out there enjoy such powerful marketing campaign. Any dissent was censored - again, that's the function of PR department, but few industries can just censor critics.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by MajimasEyepatch on Saturday October 15, 2022 @01:51PM (#33216967)
This is a ridiculous take. Vaccines have long been our most effective weapon against infectious disease, especially viruses. The CDC screwed up a number of things in the last few years, but vaccination is a vital tool for protecting the whole community with very few downsides.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by glerk on Saturday October 15, 2022 @02:48PM (#33217470)
Except that these so-called “vaccines” don’t stop transmission like the vaccines you’re thinking about.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by azinman2 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:32PM (#33217850)
It wasn’t known if it would or not. But the fact that it massively reduces risk to the virus is a giant win. What’s wrong with that?
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by daveevad on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:38PM (#33217908)
This recent firestorm about whether or not the vaccine was studied prior to release to measure its effectiveness at transmission seems like it stemmed from a single comment in the European Union's inquiry.

Has it been determined more substantially that Pfizer and Moderna did not study transmission while the vaccines were in development?

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by azinman2 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:41PM (#33217931)
I would think that couldn’t occur in the beginning. Most clinical trials are simply about safety and effectiveness for the individual. Transmission is a very difficult thing to study, especially in a clinical trial, and time was of the essence. I doubt it was a goal post for anyone, and we just needed something to stem risk of hospitalization and death. Vaccines did provide exactly that and still do.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by daveevad on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:52PM (#33218033)
I substantially agree with you but would contend that effectiveness should have included transmissibility. If it is the case that it was not studied, it does seem that some of the messaging and assumptions about vaccine mandates and/or passports is questionable. I maintain, however, a lot of skepticism that transmissibility wasn't studied initially based on this one quote about "moving at the speed of science."
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by yucky on Saturday October 15, 2022 @06:02PM (#33219068)
>I doubt it was a goal post for anyone

Except of course, the mandates. The main argument for healthy people to get it was to save granny. Except they never bothered to study transmission, which means they lied to get the mandates in place. It's not that they "just didn't know". It's that they knew they were lying when they said mandates were needed to stop transmission.

So now that creates a huge problem moving forward. Who but the most subservient will ever believe anything they say now?

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:06PM (#33217623)
> these so-called “vaccines” don’t stop transmission like the vaccines you’re thinking about

Like the inactivated poliovirus [1]? Sterilising vaccines [2] haven’t been a priority because the subpopulation that enjoys getting measles was historically small.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

[2] https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/vaccine-types

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by glerk on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:13PM (#33217684)
From the article you linked:

> OPV produces excellent immunity in the intestine, the primary site of wild poliovirus entry, which helps prevent infection with wild virus in areas where the virus is endemic.

It seems like the polio vaccine actually prevents infection which is not the case for the COVID “vaccine” which is purely therapeutical.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by arrosenberg on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:31PM (#33217842)
The vaccine isn’t therapeutic, it just doesn’t confer total immunity like some vaccines, mostly because COVID mutates frequently. Are you thinking of the monoclonal antibody treatment?
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by JumpCrisscross on Saturday October 15, 2022 @05:04PM (#33218647)
> seems like the polio vaccine actually prevents infection

OPV (“o” as in oral) sterilises. IPV (“i” as in inactivated) doesn’t. IPV doesn’t spread vaccine-derived poliovirus, so it’s the more widely-used one. (It comes down to whether the virus is neutralised in the gut or the blood.)

The polio case in Brooklyn was an unvaccinated man getting a vaccine-derived infection from the sterilising OPV [1][2].

[1] https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/1010...

[2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12931339/

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by stjohnswarts on Saturday October 15, 2022 @01:51PM (#33216973)
Not really, being anti science like most of the "critics" of the vaccines were is what should get you booted. The CDC did fine with what they had to work with to be honest. The vast majority of the people I saw being critical of the vaccines had no basis other than "I don't trust this!" and they had zero proof. 99% were hacks on twitter or far right wing "news" outlets like Fox news which have lost all credibility.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by RichardCNormos on Saturday October 15, 2022 @02:22PM (#33217258)
Calling people "anti-science" is something of a canard, a trick of speech designed to belittle and demean anyone who questions the validity of current research.

I might add that "the science" was consistently wrong about many things during the pandemic.

Here is a collection of scientific gymnastics: https://yesithappened.substack.com/p/a-collection-of-insane-...

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by staticman2 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @02:54PM (#33217527)
To quote a certain blogger I follow:

"The ongoing Pandemic has solidified my belief that that most people would be better off in this world if they listened less to laypeople who think they know a lot about medicine and instead listened more to people who have graduated medical school and have a whole bunch of framed diplomas and certificates on the walls of their medical office. It's also a good indicator of competence if they have a medical office."

And no I don't think searching the world for the one doctor out of one thousand willing to tell you what you want to hear is really in the spirit of that quote.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by somenameforme on Saturday October 15, 2022 @04:02PM (#33218104)
A question for you. Imagine you're a doctor and after extensive research and your own medical experience and praxis, you conclude that, for instance, vaccination is probably a less than optimal choice for individuals under the age of 40. How comfortable would you feel publicly expressing this?

One of the biggest problems when a society starts to become intolerant towards dissenting views is that consensus itself starts to become impossible, or at least meaningless.

Most people don't care that much about most issues. Make it sting enough to dissent, and you'll eliminate dissent from all but those willing to choose this hill to die on. But in such a case the lack of dissent becomes meaningless.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by staticman2 on Sunday October 16, 2022 @11:16AM (#33224215)
I assume by "publically expressing" you mean not saying things to friends over a beer but posting things online or that will go online in some fashion.

If I was a doctor it's unlikely I would be publically expressing anything.

As far as I know I've never been treated by a doctor who goes around publically expressing things on any topic.

When I see a specialist it's usually because I got a referral from a family doctor not because "This doctor has an exciting Twitter feed".

I would guess my doctors have no public twitter feeds at all, not that I've ever checked.

But your question is too vague. In this scenario am I a random "doctor" or am I a nationally regarded expert in the relevant field? And did I run my views past respected colleagues and did they recieve it well or tell me I'm being an idiot?

I think the job of practicing medicine is generally about going to conferences and basing your practice on what the doctors regarded as being in the top of their field suggest.

Just like the job of becoming a doctor is about answering the questions on medical school exams in line with what the teacher told you is true, not "sharing your original views" on how the teacher is wrong.

I was born before social networks existed and reject the implicit framing society works better when everybody debates everything on social media all day. Some things might work well being debated on social media, but not everything.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by artificialLimbs on Sunday October 16, 2022 @04:29PM (#33226930)
Doctors shouldn’t be sharing their opinions online is your hot take?
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by staticman2 on Sunday October 16, 2022 @06:18PM (#33227663)
Doctors are supposed to be providing the public with medical advise in line with the standards of their profession, not sharing "opinions" on medical matters whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

If you can't convince your colleagues that your "opinions" have value and you have such a high opinion of your judgement relative to the rest of your profession that you insist on broadcasting these "opinions" to the world anyway, chances are you have a high level of confidence and a low level of competence and you aren't a very good doctor.

Especially if these "opinions" are outside your specialty.

I know the notion that a doctor should show intellectual humility may offend an autodidactic who doesn't even think a layperson should show intellectual humility, but so it goes.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by artificialLimbs on Sunday October 16, 2022 @09:18PM (#33228858)
To attempt to force a populace to discard their own intellect and intuition in favor of simply listening to the 'experts' (who are always self appointed) is the dream of every psychopathic authoritarian who has lived.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by staticman2 on Monday October 17, 2022 @08:10AM (#33232448)
Medical experts aren't self appointed but I can see how that belief might correlate with a belief in a number of other things.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by artificialLimbs on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @05:07PM (#33267949)
So, medical experts don’t appoint medical experts?
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by staticman2 on Thursday October 20, 2022 @04:56PM (#33280580)
Self appointed means you appointed yourself.

If Doctor x is the considered the top cardiologist it's not because he woke up one morning and shouted "I declare myself the top cardiologist."

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by somenameforme on Monday October 17, 2022 @01:18AM (#33230019)
The story of penicillin is an interesting one. As the first antibiotic, it's without doubt single most important medical discovery in modern times. It was discovered by Alexander Fleming in 1928. He left a number of samples of a bacteria to culture while on holiday. One of his petri dishes had been inadvertently exposed and when he returned it had grown a bluish green mold.

But the interesting thing about this mold is that there was no bacteria around the areas where the mold had grown. It seemed to have repelled or killed them. He was quite excited by his discovery. But upon sharing his discovery with his colleagues they were largely dismissive. He gave a number of talks discussing the mold, where people were also universally dismissive. And he even managed to get a paper published, where you can guess the response.

This isn't the end of this story of course, though it is for our purposes. It would take more than a decade but of course eventually penicillin would eventually be refined and shaped into the life saving drug that it would rapidly become. The point I want to make with this is rather evident. Had Fleming taken public views into account before expressing himself it's entirely possible we might still live in a world without antibiotics.

And this story is the rule more than the exception for many of the most important discoveries in the progress of humanity. Human progress is heavily decentralized in no small part because the "right" answer often seems wrong at first, and is rarely enthusiastically adopted when it runs contrary to the views of a day. It was none other than Max Planck that remarked, "science progresses one funeral at a time", precisely because of this.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by staticman2 on Monday October 17, 2022 @08:06AM (#33232414)
I don't think the moral of the Alexander Fleming story is the medical community should abolish the FDA and medical malpractice laws so every doctor can do whatever and say whatever any more than the moral of "science progresses one funeral at a time" is we should fire every scientist who is older than thirty.
Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by dennis_jeeves1 on Saturday October 15, 2022 @09:45PM (#33220374)
>"The ongoing Pandemic has solidified my belief that that most people would be better off in this world if they listened less to laypeople who think they know a lot about medicine and instead listened more to people who have graduated medical school and have a whole bunch of framed diplomas and certificates on the walls of their medical office. It's also a good indicator of competence if they have a medical office."

>And no I don't think searching the world for the one doctor out of one thousand willing to tell you what you want to hear is really in the spirit of that quote.

Well there are laymen, and there are knowledgeable skeptics. Conflated the 2 and one get to gleefully brush aside questions by dismissing knowledgeable skeptics as laymen.

Re:Public Relations Company for Big Pharma Now “Embedding” E... by mercy_dude on Saturday October 15, 2022 @03:50PM (#33218015)
> The CDC did fine with what they had to work with to be honest.

If that’s the standard we have to live by after the most devastating pandemic in a century for the most developed country in the world, then there is not going to be any lessons or improvement when the next one hits.

The CDC didn’t (still doesn’t) have a full picture of mode of transmission of the virus (aerosol vs others). They kept saying it’s not airborne when all being said it looks like it is. Their focus on hand washing in retrospection seems like not a productive strategy whatsoever. The whole mask fiasco (first saying it isn’t recommended and then a straight up 180) caused the public in rooted mistrust and then their PR umbrella did a poor job addressing and admitting any failure. Their PR branch effectively did nothing to earn trust of a large swaths of public who didn’t buy into vaccination other than often resorting to name calling and gaslighting the debate further which is absolutely the opposite of what you would want to do in that situation if you really want people to get vaccinated. Many occasions they did slow walk backs and often no oversights on grants and revolving doors setup within these agencies with FDA and other pharma industries. Calling everyone criticizing you “anti-science” is a great way of not learning any lessons for next epidemic. There is a lot we can do better.