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Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by WastingMyTime89 on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:36AM (#33121069)
In my admittedly still short life, I have started to notice something: you can broadly divide the world into two groups - those who do things and those who keep wondering if they should have done things.

So for what’s worth, here is my advice to you: drop Gladwell and self-help books, if you want to and can switch to a new job, do it. Should it work or fail, you will have experienced trying. If you don’t feel like it or find yourself unable to because banks won’t loan to you, you can’t be hired or it’s finally not financially viable, don’t do it and rest in peace knowing it was your decision/you tried.

You don’t need an external reason like being too old or outside validation, you are old enough to make your own choice.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by j3th9n on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:47AM (#33121239)
This.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by michaelcao on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:53AM (#33121324)
Good advice. Thanks. I don't read self-help books. I believe in learning by practice
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by jrm4 on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:58AM (#33121395)
100%.

There are so many things that you can read or theorize about for years, in depth -- that end up still being very different once you actually do them. Just gotta try stuff.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by overgrownzygote on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:10PM (#33123251)
Over-analyzing has always been a huge struggle of mine, and your comment reminded me of a few times in my life where actually doing things taught me something important:

1. I thought I wanted to be a lawyer through most of college. I took tons of law-related courses, did a few internships, and then realized I strongly disliked actually doing it once I got my first job in the field. Thankfully, I figured it out before going to law school.

2. I studied abroad in Kenya basically on a whim. I realized my penultimate semester of college that I’d managed to get all my graduation requirements done a semester early and somehow not noticed, and decided I’d take the last semester to have a little adventure. It turned out to be one of the best things I’ve ever done.

3. At the start of lockdown in 2020, I took CS50 basically because I was bored and a friend was doing it. I had never even considered studying CS before that point, and now here I am getting my ducks in a row to do an OSU post-bacc.

I suppose the throughline here is that life is full of unknown unknowns, and unknown unknowns, by definition, aren’t something you can think about and factor into your decision-making process. Just like you said — sometimes you just gotta try stuff.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by jrm4 on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:29PM (#33123516)
Weird and interesting parallels: I quite enjoyed law school, did a few internships and practiced for a few years before mostly realizing the same thing, and still I have no regrets because things turned out well.

I took CS50 when it was probably very different (Brian Kernighan, the creator of C, teaching C)

Roughly, I ended up as a Chair of a Masters in IT program. Not doing that part anymore, but still a full time non-tenure teaching professor. (What technically, as in according to the rules of academia, qualifies me for all this, is the law degree. Weird. I'll take it!

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by hesdeadjim on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:18AM (#33121677)
Agree 100%. Either do it or dont’t, otherwise you’ll be wondering if it’s too late to change in another ten years.

Anytime someone asks me how I made the leap to building startups the answer is pretty simple: failure doesn’t scare me that much, I have failed many times, but I’ve learned and don’t repeat (most) mistakes. That and I hate anyone telling me what to do. YMMV.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by luisfmh on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:25AM (#33121775)
Reminds me of the classic yoda quote "do or do not there is no try".
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by andrew_ on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:28AM (#33121823)
The older I get the more I recognize that most of the people I've encountered, in one way or another, have a great lack of confidence and courage.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by pbhjpbhj on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:53AM (#33122174)
Meh. You can be as confident as you like, if people won't take on staff as "juniors" who are older, then the whole process of retraining - wrt career change - has been a waste of time.

I've never been involved in corporate HR, I'd want advice. Similarly, if I was doing a bungee jump for the first time I'd ask someone to check my harness ... (to spell it out, you seem to be berating someone for doing a reality check, as if reality [of the jobs market] were open to someone to define individually; ignorance and confidence can be easily confused)

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by ghost-towels on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:08AM (#33122376)
This is pretty much where I’m at. I’m mid 40s and been working in the marine industry for almost 30 years (yes I started that young). I’m going for a career change but I have zero experience in a corporate/modern office setting. I am also self taught. It will be a huge change, and I’m concerned that I may not be hireable. All that being said I’m still going for it as I’d like the rest of my working days actually helping society instead of old white dudes and their boats haha. I’m looking into security/osint.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by happyopossum on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:50AM (#33122968)
> I’m looking into security/osint.

If you can breathe, spell cybersecurity, and have decent grooming standards, you can get hired in security. The 3rd is technically optional...

Get training, then take a crappy SOC level 1 analyst job to get exposure and experience - the hiring standards aren't a lot higher than your average call center at a lot of them, as we have a ~1.5M headcount gap in the industry. You will burn out or move up in 9-12 months just like all the other L1s, but you will either figure out it's not for you or you'll be able to get a foot on the next rung of the ladder.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by influx on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:58PM (#33124782)
Security/osint is very laid back. Folks coming from a different career usually have some interesting perspectives on problem solving that can be really useful. Just wanted to say, keep going, if I was a hiring manager and you showed technical chops, and a willingness to learn, be wrong, and correct yourself, I would completely hire you.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by andrew_ on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:09PM (#33125615)
my advice: look for work with startups that have under 20 on staff. you'll avoid corporate nonsense (more often than not with startups of that size), and it's likely they'll be remote so the only "modern office setting" things you'll have to pick up and master are: not being a jerk, communicating effectively asynchronously, and video call etiquette. With companies that size, and there are many out there, they'll likely be more than happy to help you figure out the remote lifestyle.

Be bold

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Temporarily21 on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:46PM (#33127832)
In a similar boat, only I am 31. So it's been 10 years at sea.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by dinaufilter on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:45PM (#33123770)
Agreed. Without courage there's not much you can do.

Who's going to practice something for 10,000 hours? One who is strongly motivated to do so. Who's going to do well in school exams? One who is strongly motivated to do so (e.g. to please his parents)

Being strongly motivated is about following your own bent. Which takes courage. If you lack courage you won't even be able to perceive what that bent is. But if you have courage then you'll make your mind up and get stuck in.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by toss1 on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:44AM (#33122072)
YES!!

If you have a deep interest and anything resembling the skills required, go for it. Perseverance is the most important characteristic.

That said, Gladwell is completely FOS about the 10,000 hours — it bears repeating completely Full Of Sh*t. Not only is "mastery" ill-defined, but so is what counts as "practice", and it completely ignores that some people will after 10K hours fail to get to the top, and others can get to the top of other fields in less than 1000 hours (depending on how it is counted).

And, while perseverance is key, dumb perseverance is not — how you learn counts for a LOT.

The best key I've found is to seek out people at the top of the field and learn from them. Either direct in classes if possible, or from their books. You will eventually need to learn the best ways of thinking about whatever the field is, and it is better to learn the best way at the outset, than relearning it 5 times on the way up. The simplified approach at the outset may be initially rewarding, but it is a waste of time.

Also be sure to ask all the 'dumb' questions about discrepancies or things that don't add up, or edge cases. Sometimes, those reveal the most essential elements that you need to progress. As an example of how this can work in far-flung fields of endeavor, when I was alpine ski racing, at one pre-season camp, I was flailing, skiing worse than the previous year, trying with all my might to implement what the coach was saying, but clearly not understanding. Fortunately, he was willing to put up with me as I asked in the evening what was going on, and we argued for hours, with me finally asking "where does that force come from?", and we looked a bit deeper and figured out a subtle bit of how the initiation of the term was a bit different than he described. That answer was the key, and literally from the first run the next day, I improved rapidly. In a completely different field, I went to a C++ conference class series with Bjarne Stroustrup, and in an after-session question, I asked what I thought might be a dumb question, but went ahead anyway, "was I spending too much time on naming conventions on my projects?", because I was worried that I was wasting time. I got a wonderfully detailed and concise answer that was basically "NO, it is worth all that up front-investment, especially for the way it helps you think about the structure ahead of time.".

So, persevere, dig and ask those peculiar questions (obviously, not the 'dumb' ones that can be easily answered by looking it up, but the 'dumb' ones that seem like they ought to be obvious, but aren't explicit.).

Go for it, and I wish you good fortune in your new endeavor. It'll probably take longer than you like, but it's likely worth it.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by just_boost_it on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:50AM (#33122129)
Gladwell's english was very approachable, so outliers was an easy and enjoyable book to read. I even believed it the first time I read it. Once I read his later stuff though, I noticed a couple of things that didn't quite add up for me, and that sort of shone a light for me on the pattern he was using. I wouldn't put any more weight on his work now than I would on a random blog from the depths of the internet.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by michaelcao on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:01AM (#33122283)
He's a genius writer and we should be aware of that when reading his books. He could influence us. I think that 10000 hours means that long-term. No shortcut for master anything.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by dexterdog on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:11PM (#33124164)
I would not call him a genius writer by any stretch. The sheer number of people who consider him a complete fraud part of that reason. The rest is that I've seen enough of his material that didn't add up for me.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by NikolaNovak on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:58AM (#33122231)
I agree with some points of it.

However, some people (loosely correlated with age but not strictly) have more unavoidable responsibilities than others. For a very prosaic example, a person without mortgage and kids, all other things equal will have inherently less responsibilities than one with mortgage and kids (while both still have options in principle).

Empathy is a massive skill I've been learning late in life; reluctance to embark on a change may be a factor of internal confidence, external advice or validation, but also of specific circumstances that those of us being asked opinions may or may not fully share, understand, empathize with. I've been learning to ask follow-up questions before answering very broad inquiries for thoughts and advice: What's your situation, constraints, drive, interest, priorities, goals?

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by WastingMyTime89 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:44AM (#33122887)
It doesn’t significantly change my advice and was actually already factored in my answer. Your obligations are your own. If you can’t afford to change, that answers the question.

It’s not about empathy. My point is that inherently there are no advices to be had on life choices. Just do what you want to do, decide to try or decide you don’t want to. There are no right and wrong general answer here. A bunch of strangers on the internet can’t give someone permission or an excuse.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Silverback_VII on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:12PM (#33123276)
>If you can’t afford to change, that answers the question.

In my personal experience the greatest challenge is always oneself and not external factors. So your advice to drop all self-help is wrong in my opinion. There are people who made it against all odds and their mindset may crave the necesseary pathways in your brain as well.

I would even say that the more the odds are stacked against you the more you should try because there are few things as impressive.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Retric on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:27PM (#33123481)
I personally suspect more people are harmed by self help books etc than helped. Which circles back to the kind of advice I would give someone.

It’s easy to fall into the trap of assuming reading advice is inherently beneficial but it needs to result in some net positive behaviors or it’s just wasting time, money, and mental effort.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Silverback_VII on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:45PM (#33124628)
>more people are harmed by self help books etc than helped

It is certainly a business but I assume that most of these self-help gurus truly want to help. They are promoting different methods(more or less rational) but the core message is often very similar and amounts to "take action". If all roads lead to Rome you may very well get there.

I think by listening to these books you are in fact priming your brain to find a way to improve your situation.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Retric on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:07PM (#33124911)
My personal observation is people are generally soothing their brain into into inactivity rather than priming it for something. There is a reason get rich quick scams are so effective and so much home exercise equipment sits unused, the first step is usually the easiest.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by LouisSayers on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:43PM (#33125332)
I suspect a self help guru like Tony Robbins would have actually given similar advice to the root commenter - to consider your options and then to get off the couch and do something.

Lumping all self-help resources into not being useful or even harmful doesn't help. There will always be some quacks, but there will always be some people with genuine insights and the ability to help others understand themselves better and move towards their goals.

I've never paid for Tony Robbins material but would say its been helpful.

In the OP's case they could use the material to understand what is behind wanting the change. Understanding their why.

Is it a feeling of significance / love / variety / contribution that they're lacking? How could they go about getting what's missing? What are their options?

These are the types of things that I get from Tony Robbins - almost like a problem solving framework for personal problems.

All that being said, do people use self help as a form of procrastination? Yes I'd say many do. However I believe the people with all the resources that refuse to take action are no worse off than they would have been anyway.

As they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Retric on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:10PM (#33125636)
I can’t tell if that was supposed to be a parody or not.

Which is kind of my point. Some material may be better than placebo, but when we are talking about self help as an industry you need to consider the impact of everything from Scientology to actually lethal practices like Breatharianism. The trends within the industry seem to focus on what’s useful as a business rather than what’s helpful to it’s customers. So yes some people are helped, but some people are also financially ruined or even killed.

It’s not that everyone is trying to scam others, just that the same kind of forces that cause clickbait still apply and impact what’s popular.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by badpun on Saturday October 08, 2022 @10:57AM (#33132828)
> just wasting time, money, and mental effort.

I don't believe it takes effort. On the contrary, reading self-help is basically a guilty pleasure. Otherwise it wouldn't sell in such massive quantities.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Retric on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:59PM (#33136421)
What else would you call all that chemical energy used up when neurons are firing etc to allow you to read and remember something if not mental effort?
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by badpun on Sunday October 09, 2022 @01:31PM (#33143376)
All things we do requires mental effort. Laying in bed and daydreaming also results in neurons firing. So, I think we're just discussing the amount of effort. My point was that self-help is usually written is such a way to make its reading very pleasant and to actually be a dopamine hit - it makes the reader imagine all the potential changes they can implement in their lives, it pumps them up with positive message etc. It feels good to read it. However, in vast majority of cases, people remember and try to apply the advice for a couple weeks at most, and after that life happens, habits take over and they're back to their default.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by nsxwolf on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:03PM (#33124038)
"Sorry son, you're going to have to quit hockey because dad is having a midlife crisis and is going to switch careers"

Is the problem here the external factor of my son's desires? Or is it a problem with myself, putting his desires above my own?

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Art9681 on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:14PM (#33124193)
The culture of dad having a mid life crisis being frowned upon and only seen as a means to provide for the family by placing their desires above his own could be why soccer son often ends up beng raised by single mom. Dad needs help and soccer is the most irrelevant thing in the world right now.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by nsxwolf on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:26PM (#33124367)
I find the notion incredibly selfish. My family is accustomed to their lifestyle. There are certain realities that can occur that would require a reduction in that lifestyle, but I should not deliberately cause them to happen.

Sometimes the right thing to do is to sacrifice your dreams for others.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Art9681 on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:01PM (#33124818)
I absolutely agree. All I am pointing out is that mentality should be shared by the family and although it is honorable to be selfless, it is difficult to help others when one's mental state is in shambles. Take care of yourself so you can take care of others.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by SturgeonsLaw on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:48AM (#33129843)
> Sometimes the right thing to do is to sacrifice your dreams for others.

Good on you for putting your family first, and total respect for parents and parenthood, but man, reading lines like that reinforce my decision to stay free of those sorts of obligations.

I don't ever want to leave camp "do what you feel like doing".

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Silverback_VII on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:27PM (#33124386)
I think you will be a better role model if you show some courage to better your own situation.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by iandanforth on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:13PM (#33123282)
Obligations become roadblocks due to a failure of imagination or ignorance. That sounds pejorative but it describes the common case, not the exception. If this applies to you you are normal.

To overcome the belief that "my responsibilities are preventing me from doing X" you need examples of people who have those same responsibilities but are doing X, or some X-adjacent thing.

Luckily there are lots of examples through interest forums, youtube, etc where people with say a mortgage and two kids are still traveling and adventuring. There are people who have built support networks so that they can still have time to learn languages while caring for an elderly parent, autistic child, sick dog, etc.

The viable path to unblocking yourself starts by asking for help. Ask how others are doing it, get advice, take time off specifically to do this initial research. The thing you will likely find is that you can't go straight from A to B. You need to build a support network, tie into relevant services, improve your financial circumstances, etc. But once you know something is possible it can be sufficiently motivating to do the upfront work.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by Art9681 on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:04PM (#33124039)
In my experience, being blunt without the sugar coat can have a massive change on people as well. Having a mortgage and kids can be seen as a reason or excuse not to embark on change/risk but it could also be seen as a great reason to do so. We decide how we want to look at it. The old saying "actions speak louder than words" will outlive any self-help new age fad. No one cares what was said or what was thought, but what was done.

"I judge myself by my intentions but I judge you by your actions".

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by sillystuff on Friday October 07, 2022 @03:37PM (#33125939)
And, I'd add that past experiences greatly impacts tolerance to risk. A person who had no money for food and/or was homeless as a child, and a person with a financially secure family to fall back on so there are no consequences for failure are going to have very different risk tolerance.

Even when we are aware of it, fear can control us. And, previously poor people know, from experience, what the consequences of failure can be.

This was demonstrated on a macro level by the generation that grew up in the Great Depression having a high savings rate (emergency fund), repairing rather than replacing things as long as they could, and being otherwise thrifty almost regardless of income.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by david422 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:00AM (#33122269)
> those who do things and those who keep wondering if they should have done things.

Yea, I've realized that if I want to do something - some goal - if you don't literally _just do it_ then odds of it happening become slimmer and slimmer.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by dehrmann on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:56AM (#33123044)
To quote my old trainer, "the weight's not gonna lift itself."
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by anderspitman on Friday October 07, 2022 @12:29PM (#33123523)
> drop Gladwell and self-help books

The advice I like is "read them until they all sound the same".

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by tomthumb on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:50PM (#33124681)
Words of wisdom! I have tweeted your first paragraph. Hope you don’t mind..
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by balaji1 on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:01PM (#33124828)
it is a good point to suggest to take more action. But to make significant progress, requires thinking thru the next 5-10 moves and committing to them and putting in consistent effort -- do any books discuss that?

A change shouldn't be just hoping that you "end up at the right place at the right time" this time. That is rare.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by WheelsAtLarge on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:18PM (#33127537)
Everywhere, no matter education, wealth or resources in general. DOers will always come out ahead. Not do it once but acting on your ideas regularly. Yes, some ideas will go wrong but at least you know the out come. DOers are those we read about all the time. Sometimes they are great other times they are not but at least they did something to find out. You never hear about those that did nothing. Maybe, we read their name in a grave stone.
Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by annyeonghada on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:31AM (#33130979)
>DOers will always come out ahead. Not do it once but acting on your ideas regularly. Yes, some ideas will go wrong but at least you know the out come.

Especially if they are already rich.

>DOers are those we read about all the time.

Because nobody wants to hear about the DOer that failed and ruined his/her life.

>You never hear about those that did nothing. Maybe, we read their name in a grave stone.

And maybe they had a great family and their name will be remembered in the family for generations as the "founder" of the family. Almost a mythological figure.

Re:10k hours rule to master anything. Could I switch career ... by rajeshp1986 on Friday October 07, 2022 @07:58PM (#33128448)
Great answer. I realized this pretty recently that I have been thinking a lot of doing things and never getting to it. I joined a startup and seeing every having the "do things" mentality made me realize this.