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Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by thefz on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:47PM (#32914375)
> competing with the flood of miner cards entering the market.

Remember: don't buy miner cards and let them rot. They artificially generated scarcity thus raising the prices for everybody during the pandemic. And don't believe that a card that has been on 24/7 is safe to use. "but it was undervolted!" means nothing.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by iforgotpassword on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:57PM (#32914549)
Just let them become e-waste and buy something new. Turn on the stove and open all Windows when not at home while you're at it. SMH.

And that "not safe to use"? You think it's gonna explode? Worst case it doesn't work, but even that's probably pretty low risk. Hardware doesn't "wear" that way that quickly.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by super256 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:09PM (#32914710)
Exactly. The thing that stresses silicon the most is extreme change of temperature. Guess what doesn't change during mining: Temperature. When mining, you want a steady rate and will most likely downclock and undervolt it in order to get maximum efficiency out of your card.

The only thing I could imagine to break are capacitors, but I still have to run into anyone who has issues like that.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by fomine3 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @08:28PM (#32919588)
Fans, soldering, thermal pads
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by thefz on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:27PM (#32914964)
The environmental argument crumbles a bit when defending miners, don't you think?
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by unethical_ban on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:34PM (#32915957)
Look up "sunk cost".

GPU mining is poised to be permanently done. There is no "lesson" to teach miners, because there is no expected repeat of such a run on GPU mining again.

Meanwhile, the implication from your post is that it is better that the tens or hundreds of thousands of GPUs miners currently own and may offload would be better in a dump, just for retribution.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by effie on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @06:56PM (#32918888)
Nicely said. Actually there is a point - vengeance and moralizing. But you're right this probably wouldn't have much effect on GPU availability and reduction of pollution in the near future.
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by TomVDB on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:40PM (#32915134)
They're defending taking advantage of a miner's forced fire sale. Less waste, lower price for a good GPU. What's not to like?
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by effie on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @06:49PM (#32918820)
His argument is that by buying a miner card, you're validating strategy of miners, which are considered "bad actors" by gamers and environmentalists. If you intentionally decline buying a miner card, you're helping to make miner activity less profitable, thus doing the "right thing".
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by thefz on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:07AM (#32921319)
You still want to give them money in exchange for dubious goods.
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by thefz on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:50PM (#32915271)
Why don't you go to a beach and scoop up some oil from the BP spill? It's good oil after all.

Let them clean up their environmental disaster.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by TomVDB on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @03:03PM (#32916340)
Holy false equivalence, batman!
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by njdvndsjkv on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @05:28PM (#32918037)
>Why don't you go to a beach and scoop up some oil from the BP spill? If it was trivial, why not? If you told him "don't buy any GPUs" then it would make sense. But either way he will be using some "oil" (GPU) in this case so I don't see why he should waste perfectly good "oil." I suppose you would rather leave the oil in the ocean?
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by jdhendrickson on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @05:13PM (#32917862)
I have never understood this argument. How much environmental damage is done by the mere creation of all television shows cumulatively, the creation of plastic tat given away at conventions, plastic wrapping at grocery stores?

But graphics cards are what we REALLY need to focus on and you better believe you are tuning in for the next big show. It's almost manufactured.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by bufferoverflow on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:37PM (#32915092)
He is not defending miners.
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by mckirk on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:00PM (#32914604)
I would actually be quite interested in seeing some numbers to back that up, but I'm not sure if there have been studies on the damage of mining yet.

In some ways, letting a GPU run at a constant load (and thus constant temperature) is less damaging than a typical gaming workload I imagine, where the temperature fluctuates often. In other ways it probably isn't (e.g. atoms of the chip 'migrating' over time with the constant electron flow, though I have no idea how much of an issue that is with modern chips).

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by kllrnohj on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:37PM (#32915085)
> I would actually be quite interested in seeing some numbers to back that up, but I'm not sure if there have been studies on the damage of mining yet.

The few investigations have generally found mining cards are perfectly fine and if anything above-average in used quality. Because yes the primary damage is from thermal cycles, not just being on. And since mining is a constant load & constant environment, it has very few thermal cycles. And miners primarily care about efficiency, so they're power-limiting them[1] which further reduces strain on the cards.

Fans might be closer to death than a typical used card would be, but on pretty much any GPU those are cheap & easy to replace. That's really the only "risk"

1: And before someone inevitable scoffs at this, it's common enough that this is built into tools like nicehash. It's literally "click 1 button" territory, not exactly something a miner wouldn't attempt.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by thefz on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:26PM (#32914952)
Do you have any idea about where these were kept? Not all mining operations are commercial-like white rooms with people going around in sealed suits. Maybe someone had half a dozen cards in his chicken coop, exposed to dust and moisture and energy fluctuations. You will never know. Would you happily buy that at say, 50% MSRP?
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by phil21 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @03:20PM (#32916538)
> Would you happily buy that at say, 50% MSRP?

Yup, assuming it works and checks out the first 24 hours I have it.

Solid state electronics are pretty robust. If they survive whatever torture you put them through plus being shipped to my door, chances are it will work just fine. In my experience there are some problematic GPU models that are more prone to early failure under heavy use (HD6990 I'm looking at you!), but they are more rare than legend may lead folks to believe.

At an appropriate discount it's far cheaper to just buy these at pennies on the dollar and just be alright with self-insuring for a rather rare early failure. When you can buy 2 or 3 for the price of new, it starts to get rather compelling.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by seanp2k2 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:05PM (#32915553)
As long as there isn't any corrosion that will lead to premature failure, I don't care. Dust is easy to clean off and I would expect anyone trying to sell a $500+ GPU to at least try to clean it up a bit. Even if not, I have an air compressor and a blow gun. "Energy fluctuations"...what? Power supplies and VRMs are built to deal with this. Check your home with a power analyzer with a high sampling rate and see what happens when your AC kicks on. At the same time, measure the 12v rail going into your GPU when that's happening.
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by genocidicbunny on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @03:39PM (#32916757)
How do you tell there's no corrosion though? You need to at the very least take off any coolers on the card and look at the PCB itself to have some level of confidence that there's no damage, and even then I've seen corrosion sneak under components where you need to pay really close attention to notice it.

If I can inspect a card in person, I would be plenty happy to buy an ex-mining card, but most of these are going to be sold online sight-unseen. This isn't a problem exclusive to mining cards though; people have been selling damaged GPUs as 'working' for years.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by sanguy on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:30PM (#32915006)
Yes.
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by 0x0f_4 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:37PM (#32915094)
same
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by zokier on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:53PM (#32914485)
> They artificially generated scarcity

I don't think there was anything artificial about the scarcity generated by miners; the demand was genuine. Scalpers are a different matter....

> And don't believe that a card that has been on 24/7 is safe to use

Are you claiming that it is somehow unsafe to use?

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by thefz on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:04PM (#32914659)
> Are you claiming that it is somehow unsafe to use?

For your wallet, yes. Do you have any information about the environment in which a card was used? Temperature, dust, air moisture were like in a home or there operated in an industrial warehouse? Fan bearing status after all these hours? Voltage applied? Stock BIOS? were they in an enclosure or in a sort of a case? Thermal paste has been changed? Ever been disassembled?

I would not trust a miner's card even if it was a gift.

Miners screwed the market over and now they want you to think that their used crap is such a bargain. Let them deal with their waste, don't help them.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by TomVDB on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:32PM (#32915026)
I'd be more than happy to by a 3080 (or similar) for a bargain price, knowing that it has been run at lower voltages and power levels.

As for waste: I very much hope it will not become waste. Why would you be advocating for that?

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by drunkendog on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:41PM (#32916059)
> Do you have any information about the environment in which a card was used?

That would be even more true for cards owned by non-miners; most miners will operate at a large enough scale to use some best practices, which definitely isn't true about most people who buy GPUs for personal use.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by belthesar on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @02:19PM (#32915770)
This is but one test, but Linus Media Group did some testing and found that mining GPUs worked just fine. Fan time and thermal pad degradation are about the only real detractors from buying a used GPU. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKqVvXTanzI

Of course, if a card's running at thermal throttle for long periods of time, that has a chance to damage the card, but given that most cards are running underclocked, the likelihood that you'll run into that problem is low.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by Melatonic on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:46PM (#32915209)
This is a horrible take and I will definitely be buying a card at rock bottom prices once miners start dumping them big time.
Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by Ekaros on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:25PM (#32914933)
I don't think there was anything artificial with demand... Just somewhat combining demand from limited other spending and mining.

For Nvidia it made no sense not to produce as many ships as they could.

Re:GeForce RTX 40 Series by saati on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:22PM (#32914893)
So, generate artificial scarcity?