Please omit this sort of low-quality, evidenceless* insinuation from your posts to HN. The site guidelines specifically ask: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
If you or anyone want to know why we have this rule, many years of explanation can be found via https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme....
* An opposing view does not count as evidence. This community is large and has a ton of people who come by their opposing views perfectly honestly, as I'm sure do you. Insinuating otherwise is hands-down the laziest internet trope there is, and by far the one that most corrupts discussion quality. You can make your substantive points without that, so please do.
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Edit: actually, since you stooped to outright slurs elsewhere in the thread, I've banned the account. More at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32904793.
Or even US people believing their data can be misused more by their own government, than a country they will never visit.
Also, my data on Fb/Google is much, much more personal than whatever TikTok has on me.
Also, there is a big difference between how US companies operate, and the circumstances in which they share data, and how a Chinese company operates.
A parallel is that Google pulled out of China because China demanded Google censor search results (and account security issues). You could easily retort that Google censors all their search results anyway, but there really is no comparison between what China demands and what some believe Google does anyway.
As a non-US person, I think you didn't get the point: the US agencies can only ask for data, but the Chinese agencies can push whatever software changes they want.
In other words, if China attacks Taiwan, there is nothing from stopping them of changing TikTok algorithm to deprioritize all the user content critizing its actions.
It could even make it look like the entire TikTok is supporting China just by promoting "the right" user content.
Facebook has admitted to suppressing speech in Thailand and the US.
Twitter and reddit openly do it during election season to sway votes and opinions globally.
You must be outright blind to gross crimes you claim TikTok might do but other social media have ALREADY been caught doing.
> Twitter and reddit openly do it during election season to sway votes and opinions globally.
Could you provide any reputable sources that claim that such things were done under the direct request from the US agencies? Or is this your personal interpretation?
Do you really not see the difference?
If a citizen or visitor to the US criticizes the government in any way; nothing happens to them. The CCP on the other hand is quick to arrest and silence any party within their jurisdiction which is critical of the government.
Literally millions of people have died because of the CCP's tight grip on the country and strong-handed end to any opposition. Ask the uighur muslims about this.
It also looks like you've been using HN primarily for political/ideological/nationalistic battle, which is another line at which we ban accounts (https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...).
Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
Being underestimated is to China’a advantage.
Another thing is that, Americans don’t see the effect of soft power and cultural imperialism because it has often been American culture and technology being exported elsewhere. Tik Tok is an example of a successful export by China, and it likely won’t be the last.
That bit about Western governments can only access the data through search warrant is not strictly true. The US have gotten around their own laws by such things as, purchasing consumer data on the open market without a warrant, or making agreements with other government intelligence agencies to obtain domestic surveillance data through a foreign ally’s foreign surveillance program.
Indeed, here is an article that explains some of that history
https://www.historyextra.com/period/modern/has-china-always-...
It's disingenuous to believe that western government agencies are fully transparent and always require a judge's warrant and in general don't engage in espionage activities - the USA are especially competent at this.
If you could identifying some target group, like those easily influenced about a particular topic, then videos could be recommended to try to push them towards some perspective about that topic. I would even claim that the user generated content varies enough that the need for planted/sponsored videos would be rare.
I don't think it's remotely controversial to claim that they have the majority of the eyes of the US youth under their control [1]. I doubt there's ever been another time in history where a foreign, not-so-good-relation, government has had anything close to this level of direct, push, access to another countries population.
Lets flip it. If the most viewed media company in China were US based, partly owned by the US government (as ByteDance is by the CCP), I think we can all assume that a three letter agency would be using it to their advantage. They use our own companies to their advantage. China is demonstrably similar, in this way. But, China would never allow that scenario to happen.
1. https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/new-report-on-teen-soc...
Perhaps people are just sick and tired of these weekly fear-baiting threads about Tik Tok, but who am I to comment on this mass hysteria incited for the sole purpose of hatred and conflict?
But I'm curious in general, would a site like HN ever attract state actors, or even corporate collusion (from a fortune 500 for example, founder asking friends for upvotes or friendly comments I've seen). It's an honest question, I can picture twitter and facebook and these massive dau number sites attracting psyops type stuff. Does it happen on the scale on HN and other "popular" sites that are still niche compared to the big ones? Does Ravelry have multinational threat actors posting? It would be interesting to understand that whole ecosystem
These are all privacy issues, but they're not national security issues. What's the exact concern here? TikTok being able to create voice and faceprints of US citizens? So can Snapchat or FB Messenger; and I would hope no CIA spy (the only people the CPC would actually care about) has a TikTok account.
What else? The CPC using TikTok to push pro-China or pro-Russia propaganda? Pro-Russia content was banned from TikTok, and TikTok isn't known for its popular pro-China videos. Promoting pro-Trump "propaganda" to "subvert" the U.S.? Trump is banned from TikTok. Where's the "subversion"?
This is an international community. We are not all Americans, and some of us react to the words "national security" as the town dwellers in the boy who cried wolf.
There are tons of HN guideline violations all over this thread @dang.
No, what about people who dont believe american propaganda?
"minimize the threat against the West by China. Clearly TikTok can be a national security issue."
The "west" is not a country. Who is being menaced here? The "west" (what countries are the west exactly? Bolivia is in the Western Emisphere, and they are more aligned with China than with the american Empire.) By "West" do you actually mean the NATO military alliance?
"Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Snowden is laughing his ass off!
"By actively looking to undermine the West."
Again, what do you mean by "the West"? The Western Emisphere? Developed countries? The Imperial Core? The NATO military-imperialistic-warmonger alliance?
I will tell you the regions of the world that don't benefit from the West, and the exploitation it produces: the whole of Latin America, Africa, Asia and Russia. Those are vast regions of land where billions have been historically EXPLOITED, SUBJUGATED and ENSLAVED by "The West". Fuck the west! It should completely be undermined and destroyed, to be replaced by a socialistic, humanistic and civilized society.
As long as "The West" and the wars, bloodbaths and constant bombings, coups, civil wars, guerrilla fighting and exploitation they promote exists, that cannot be achieved.
The Russians have done quite a good job of exploiting their own people, no need for the West's assistance there. Example: Perestroika. You'd think a resource-rich country with some of the wealthiest individuals on the planet (and arguably THE wealthiest person on the planet by a great distance if rumors of Putin's actual net worth are true) wouldn't have trouble providing the basics to its people....but over 20% of the country doesn't have access to indoor plumbing. That's totally the fault of the big evil "West", now isn't it?
As for LatAm and Africa, no argument there.
Quoting the director of the Kissinger Institute! You cant make this shit up. Is just too funny.
Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
Clearly TikTok can be a national security issue.
All these comments do not address this at all, and seem to do their best to ridicule a valid concern.
Obviously the issue is that the data from TikTok is required to go to the Chinese government as do the algorithms.
China has clearly benefitted from the West, by all the money and IP that we have given it, by the products we purchase. Now, the Chinese are biting the hand that feeds it, by becoming an ally of Russia. By actively looking to undermine the West. To deny this is to deny reality,unless you are saying all the reports on how the Chinese are doing this is "fake news."
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https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-chin...
Robert Daly, the director of the Kissinger Institute on China and the United States, at the Wilson Center, in Washington, said “This is a pledge to stand shoulder to shoulder against America and the West, ideologically as well as militarily,”
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The difference between TikTok and all Chinese apps is that the government essentially owns all companies, whereas in the West, this is not the case. Western governments can only access data from private companies if they have a search warrant.
Furthermore, I believe China will be seeking to invade Taiwan soon, and take over all their chip-making technology. Their population and economy is crashing, so now is the time to invade Taiwan.
To just dismiss these concerns about TikTok out of hand, without any discussion, is clearly wrong.
This entire thread seems like it was written by the CCP sleeper HN users.
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Also, as noted by trident5000 below, China has access to all USA users of TikTok., but the USA or anyone else doesn't have access to Chinese users of TikTok. That's just one more issue to add on, and I'm sure there are others, too.