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Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by apignotti on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:59AM (#32899249)
From the point of view of Adobe, Flash is a legacy technology. Simply put, there is not enough business to be made with it at Adobe's scale.

It is safe to assume that the Flash team has either left the company or moved to other roles in the meantime. The Flash codebase is gigantic, evolved over decades and probably includes IP with non-obvious licensing restriction (RTMP is an example that pops to mind). Porting to Wasm such a big codebase would require assembling a new team and figuring out some legal aspects. Both these things are expensive.

At the same time, FOSS efforts to replace Flash can at best achieve partial support for SWF content in the wild. The API surface is just too massive and poorly documented. I speak from personal experience here, having founded the Lightspark project when I was younger and with a lot of time on my hands.

Our opinion (at LeaningTech) is that Wasm can solve the Flash preservation problem by virtualizing the original, unmodified Flash x86 plugin. We wrote at length about our approach here: https://medium.com/p/eb6838b7e36f

The resulting product (CheerpX for Flash, https://leaningtech.com/cheerpx-for-flash/) is available to companies that needs to use Flash (and particularly, Flex) business applications.

Since the SWF effectively runs using the original Flash plugin the accuracy is optimal. On the hand, licensing the plugin itself is required, which means that the solution is not viable for end-users. As much as we'd like this to be different, it's unfortunately outside of our control.

Full disclosure: I am founder and CTO of Leaning Technologies, and lead developer of CheerpX

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by cogman10 on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:29AM (#32899681)
Someone I know worked on flash at adobe. Long before it was "dead" it was "dead". What killed it? According to my acquaintance it was Apple. Apple disallowed flash on iOS which adobe was counting on as being a big expansion of the flash market.

As for the dev environment around flash, according to them it was a nightmare codebase not for the faint of heart. It isn't surprising that adobe decided not to port it to WASM because it was a spaghetti mess.

There's a reason Flash was often a virus vector back in the day.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by irrational on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:00PM (#32900944)
It was definitely Apple from my perspective. We had this amazing training site built in flash. I’m taking full on animated storylines, professional voice talent, everything. Our animation teams were releasing new content every three months with new product seasonal launches. We won lots of awards. Then… Apple launched the iPad. All of our retail partners announced they were going to adopt the iPad to train sales associates. And the iPad doesn’t run flash. Well… crap. We laid off the animation teams and told the voice talent there would be no more work. All of the content switched to plain plain html - text and static images. So boring. We saw massive drop in usage, especially in Asia where they lived the animated stories (the flash animations were translated into 40 languages). It has been 10+ years now and the site is around, but it is still boring plain text and static images. Flash had problems, but it was also something really special that has not been replicated since Apple killed it.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by auggierose on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:29PM (#32901295)
So it was deemed too expensive or risky to just turn it into an app? Sounds like you had your business model already figured out, building the app sounds like the easy part.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by JoeyJoJoJr on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:39PM (#32903635)
There was never any simple way of turning it into an app with these sort of products. Flash had a very unique set of functional/creative affordances that have never since been replicated in an authoring tool. I worked on many bespoke solutions to migrate Flash animations to apps and the lack of proper integration and ecosystem supporting the workflows made it far too impractical to try and reproduce much of Flash’s functionality. It many instances the business objectives were tied directly to the capabilities of Flash. Flash also had an extremely robust means of loading isolated application modules that helped businesses isolate their workloads and scale their applications. Solving that problem once Flash was gone was beyond the capabilities of many businesses that relied heavily on Flash.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by skyde on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @05:12PM (#32917852)
This: "Flash had a very unique set of functional/creative affordances that have never since been replicated in an authoring tool".

It was extremely to do a UI application with Flexbuilder, very similar to using VisualBasic 6.0. Just drag some widget and connect the event to some functions. Also drawing and animating vector graphic with the Flash authoring tool was extremely easy.

Today there is still no software that is this easy to use. You dont see 7 years old kid coding vector gfx animation with javascript and css :)

But back in the day it was not uncommon to see complex flash animation designed by 7 years old kid.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by tomByrer on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:04AM (#32907861)
Browsers have all the APIs you need to 'replace Flash' now, just needs the ecosystem IMHO.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by saurik on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @03:10PM (#32916427)
The issue described wasn't that the underlying system couldn't support it: they were taking about native apps, which certainly had "all the APIs you need to replace Flash". The issue isn't about the runtime, it is that the Flash authoring experience itself--the app/IDE which people used to develop for Flash--was so glorious and rich in its design, and offered such wonderful affordances for making these animations, and no one has ever replicated such.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by irrational on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:56PM (#32903096)
Flash file sizes were very small (they were basically just vector graphics). We tried making them into videos, but the file sizes, even greatly compressed, were too big for our Asian retailers. This was in the days before video streaming really came into its own. If we were making the decision in 2022, we probably would have gone with videos.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by boastful_inaba on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:07PM (#32905888)
I once spoke with an ex-Macromedia employee who told me that a full Flash-to-App tool had been developed for the launch of custom apps on iPhone ... and that Apple had internally committed to blocking any app developed in Flash, so the tool was never released.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by pYroStack0 on Monday September 19, 2022 @07:55PM (#32905780)
Also very curious which motivation not to wrap and app it!
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by skyde on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @05:15PM (#32917880)
Because Apple silently refused to approve all app using flash internally. This was war between apple and adobe.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by rchaud on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:32PM (#32903541)
A modern version of Flash is precisely the type of software you would think Apple would have created. They acquired Hypercard after all.

Sad that the best they can do is Swift Playgrounds for iPad; creating what is essentially a JSFiddle/Codepen for apps that can't be deployed without first paying their $99 dev fee toll.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by naikrovek on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:34PM (#32903568)
Adobe Animate is Adobe Flash and it exports to HTML5 and so on. you can even export to .swf files if you want.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by irrational on Monday September 19, 2022 @05:14PM (#32904074)
In some ways it is too little, too late. There was a plethora of vector animators that probably could have moved over to animate, if it had existed back then. But it didn’t. So they moved into video as the YouTube era took hold.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by rchaud on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:42PM (#32903681)
Adobe Flash died before becoming a forever-subscription product.

In that spirit, I use Tumult Hype, which truly is Flash, and can be acquired without a pesky subscription.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by naikrovek on Monday September 19, 2022 @10:51PM (#32907114)
why do so many comments on this website sound like commercials?
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by eurasiantiger on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @01:39AM (#32908045)
Wait til you notice some 1% of the posts on the first few pages are keyword-targeted for you based on things you’ve discussed elsewhere.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by tmaly on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:10PM (#32905910)
I think all the security vulnerabilities that came out also contributed to its decline.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by weberer on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:55PM (#32902375)
Why didn't you make them videos?
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by irrational on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:54PM (#32903072)
We tested it. File size was too big. Internet speeds were too slow in much of Asia back then (I don’t know how it is now). Flash file sizes were extremely small (it was basically all vector graphics).
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by YbW4PaUX7AjenKB on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:05PM (#32901760)
You could do animation and audio without Flash 10+ years ago. :shrug:
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by irrational on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:59PM (#32903117)
LOL. Please. What tools, other than flash, were animators using to make videos for the web back then? Remember that they can’t be saved as videos since video streaming hadn’t come into its own and video file sizes were too large for our Asian retailers. The nice thing about flash animations is they were vector graphics. Super small file sizes.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by dosshell on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:27PM (#32903473)
This is outside my expertise but i remember doing svg animations, web gl animations and unity animations roughly ~10 years ago. But maybe that was a few years to late or not applicable to your case?

But an app with vector animations should have been doable (not to hard in theory) if you could have found the investment for it, right?

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by irrational on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:35PM (#32903577)
Professional animators are artists. They need professional animation tools, like flash, to work with, not svg/webgl/unity that a programmer would be more comfortable with. They need things like a timeline, character library, animation pallet, built in tweening tools, etc.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by dosshell on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:40PM (#32903643)
Ah, I understand. thanks for the clarification :)

(Unity do have animations tools for artists (it is partly made for artists) but not so good for vector graphics and not close to flash, and definitely not back then.)

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by masklinn on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:02PM (#32900139)
> What killed it? According to my acquaintance it was Apple.

It was definitely what drew the first blood.

But in fairness, a lot of people were crying for blood, flash had issues all over, and it was a complete security disaster. Apple's decision basically gave everyone the OK to dump on it.

It also happened at a time where the idea of open web was ascendent, MSIE was being actively fought against, and the people involved were out to excise proprietary platforms.

Also all mobile platform flash implementations had been absolutely awful, barely usable battery killer even ignoring that the UI affordances were just not adapted for mobile touchscreen devices.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by josefresco on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:30PM (#32900524)
> It was definitely what drew the first blood.

Lack of iOS compatibility was the nail in the coffin. Our web agency already hated Flash because it lacked any SEO capability, and the editor was shit. When the iPhone dropped it we had already been building websites without it for a couple of years. It was just a nice accelerator and allowed us to deny clients who requested Flash much easier.

Fast forward a couple more years and security became the main issue. Many of our clients were infatuated with their Flash websites and didn't want to move on. I just took down a Flash website (replaced with HTML/CSS/JS) in... 2022!

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by phire on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:22PM (#32902713)
It might not be quite correct to describe it as the final nail in the coffin, but it absolutely was the killing blow.

Flash had been on shaky grounds for years. It was obvious that it had a limited lifespan, and that it eventually needed to die. I think even Adobe recognised this. But Apple accelerated it's death massively, and everyone seems to be very thankful for that.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by deckard1 on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:46PM (#32900728)
people that romanticize Flash are selectively remembering the cool uses such as Newgrounds and Homestar Runner. They are forgetting Flash ads, which were stuffed on a page to the point they would crash your browser. Or the constant fun of hunt-the-talking-banner. You could always tell when you landed on one of these pages by how fast your CPU fans started spinning. If your PC sounds like a jet engine, you're on a heavy Flash site and should close your browser ASAP.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by egfx on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:58PM (#32900912)
It’s not just about AlbinoBlacksheep and NewGrounds. Flash was the most consequential technology on the web’s frontend prior to and even after html5. It was enabled on a staggering 98% of web browsers. So much so it was basically synonymous with web browsing. You can trace the trail of flash to the invention and adoption of social media. There would be no MySpace, no YouTube and Meebo. The internet would have had a completely different story.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by pjmlp on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:06PM (#32901012)
Now they get ads using WebAssembly and WebGL instead, what an improvement!
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by bmacho on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @05:57PM (#32918347)
> If your PC sounds like a jet engine, you're on a heavy Flash site and should close your browser ASAP.

There is a duolingo page that manages to kill my computer to death if I am not fast enough to close it. (Fortunately I only get it ~once a week.) Flash was easily blockable, but javascript, especially something that is compiled to javascript is much harder to catch.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by rchaud on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:46PM (#32903736)
Blaming Flash for talking ads of the mid-2000s is like blaming the cement on which a toll booth was erected.

Flash is dead. Autoplaying ads still exist.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by YbW4PaUX7AjenKB on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:06PM (#32901774)
To be fair, now those ads are JS and do the same thing.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by kitsunesoba on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:51PM (#32900814)
The UX of Flash and Flash-dependent sites was often bad, too. Late in its life, full-Flash sites were the only ones that I had to sit and watch a progress bar to load… regular HTML/CSS/JS sites, especially with an adblocker, loaded instantly.

For sites that used a Flash component (e.g. YouTube), the plug-in was fussy and flaky and would sometimes not work for any discernible reason, sometimes requiring an update to fix it. HTML5 replacements have been far less cantankerous.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by rchaud on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:41PM (#32903656)
> Late in its life, full-Flash sites were the only ones that I had to sit and watch a progress bar to load… regular HTML/CSS/JS sites, especially with an adblocker, loaded instantly.

Well...yeah. Flash sites usually make use of graphics, fonts and videos, all of which use bandwidth. They serve an entirely different purpose than regular HTML/CSS/JS pages.

Flash loaded everything at once, so that the experience was instantaneous and fluid, once it loaded. It would continue to work if you disconnected. There wouldn't be any buffering or lag due to network issues.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by titzer on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:43AM (#32899883)
I've heard similar anecdotes about the VM being a mess.

Where Adobe seems to have royally screwed up is creating an unambiguous specification for SWF format, and also disallowing other implementations of SWF. Instead, they become beholden to a codebase that no one could make heads or tails of, with no way of creating a clean rewrite that was guaranteed to replicate the behavior.

In designing Wasm we were very conscious of this, which is why Wasm has a very, very explicit specification that is simple with only the minimum non-determinism (some NaN issues) and no UB.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by IshKebab on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:43AM (#32899882)
Apple definitely accelerated the process a lot, but Flash on Android was abysmal so I think people would have moved away from it eventually anyway.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by jaywalk on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:57AM (#32900072)
Same with Flash on Windows Mobile before it. Even if Apple allowed it (and I shudder to imagine an alternate timeline where they did) I doubt Adobe could have made it much better.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by yardie on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:09PM (#32901810)
Okay but Android phones of that era did support Flash and it was one of the advantages Android had at the time (Motorola Droid era) that they were advertising heavily. The iPhone doesn't support Flash, Android does. Therefore you want an Android phone to access Flash content.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by monocasa on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:01PM (#32902455)
I had flash on a Motorola Droid and it was awful. Not only did the VM have questionable compatibility for some reason, it also completely destroyed battery life. Cute trick, but not really usable for day to day.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by rchaud on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:48PM (#32903758)
The same could be said of mobile YouTube back then. Or mobile browsers in general. They were luxuries, to be used sparingly on low-power hardware.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by monocasa on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @10:05AM (#32911800)
Flash was noticeably worse than those examples.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by moralestapia on Monday September 19, 2022 @08:28PM (#32906050)
>According to my acquaintance it was Apple.

LOL, that's far from insider info. Steve Jobs publicly said several times that he was going to kill Flash. And he did.

And the reason for that wasn't "Flash is an insecure platform". Flash was in the way of a thing called the "App Store" which, fast forward to 2022, has made Apple somewhere around a trillion (with a t) dollars.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by deadbolt on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:11PM (#32907220)
> LOL, that's far from insider info. Steve Jobs publicly said several times that he was going to kill Flash. And he did.

This is one of the first things which makes me feel old. "heard it from an aquantance" shit we all saw it happen! I wonder if people are to young to remember it, or maybe there are a lot of people who just don't remember it at all.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by moralestapia on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:34PM (#32907363)
My thoughts as well! We old school now :D
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by Terretta on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:51PM (#32906681)
At the time, iphone was initially intended as platform for HTML5 apps, which it can still do today. So less about App Store, more about a number of dimensions of usability. Devs demanded native apps, not Jobs.

The problem with Flash was that it was a grossly inefficient runtime for arbitrary code with security issues, an extreme battery hog, and had no affordances for touch (e.g. you couldn't 'hover'). As I recall, battery was the biggest problem, security close second, UX inconsistency third, and runtime for arbitrary code (still disallowed!) as nail in coffin.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by mind-blight on Monday September 19, 2022 @04:19PM (#32903363)
I was a contractor at the time of that announcement, and I remember using Apple's announcement as leverage to convince a customer to fund migrating their learning app from flash to html/JavaScript.

Given how difficult it was to maintain a flash codebase well with multiple developers jumping in and out of the project, we pushed that angle pretty hard

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by dataangel on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:23PM (#32901975)
> It isn't surprising that adobe decided not to port it to WASM because it was a spaghetti mess.

Business people never use this as part of the decision making process. If there's a market they will throw programmers at it and ignore their warnings.

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by cogman10 on Monday September 19, 2022 @03:31PM (#32902812)
Business people don't know WTF a WASM is.

I'm sure "we should get flash mobile" was pitched at one point in time and the "we'd have to rewrite everything in Javascript" was ultimately what killed those sorts of notions. Because, business people care that "this will be a multimillion dollar investment"

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by strangattractor on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:48PM (#32901525)
In addition Flash was a battery killer if my memory does not fail me.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by apignotti on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:09AM (#32899401)
Shameless promotion: a technology like CheerpX has many more uses

Our latest demo (PythonFiddle) is discussed here: https://leaningtech.com/pythonfiddle-fully-private-client-si...

Direct link: https://pythonfiddle.leaningtech.com

Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by andrew_ on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:35AM (#32899768)
Unsolicited feedback: That's a mouthful of a product name there. I can't reason how to properly pronounce it, and it's incredibly awkward to read visually. If you're looking for adoption and engagement with the project, I'd suggest crowdsourcing a new branding.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by IshKebab on Monday September 19, 2022 @11:46AM (#32899917)
It's clearly pronounced CheraaeerpexxXX. Not awkward at all!
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by jacob019 on Monday September 19, 2022 @12:57PM (#32900902)
I would read it as cheer-pex.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by rtev on Monday September 19, 2022 @02:07PM (#32901781)
That makes sense. I feel like it should be spelled CheerPex
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by mwcampbell on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:02PM (#32900970)
THe unmodified Flash plugin that you're running presumably has to run on an emulated OS. So for this application of CheerpX, are you emulating Linux or Win32? I've already seen the WebVM demo, where it looks like you're doing Linux syscall emulation.
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by apignotti on Monday September 19, 2022 @01:51PM (#32901577)
We emulate a Linux system indeed
Re:Ask HN: Why Adobe still can’t figure out Flash on WASM? by quickthrower2 on Tuesday September 20, 2022 @12:46AM (#32907752)
How do you do security updates on this virtualized flash?