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Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by jpalomaki on Friday September 16, 2022 @03:39AM (#32863275)
This is a problem that is is very hard to solve on the global scale.

Right now Google is not asking information that would allow them to really verify my identity. Not sure if people would like Google to start demanding that kind of information, like personal identity code (for countries where it is available), passport numbers, home addresses etc.

Without strong identity checks, the system is prone to fraud. Black hats can either social e engineer their way around the support agents or use leaked personal data to impersonate people to gain access to their accounts.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by fauigerzigerk on Friday September 16, 2022 @04:00AM (#32863410)
>Right now Google is not asking information that would allow them to really verify my identity.

Why can't they offer identity verification as an option? It's not exactly difficult to do technically.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by supernova87a on Friday September 16, 2022 @04:57AM (#32863815)
Can you imagine how complicated this is, and controversial?

How to do this exactly? Do you want Google to be proving who people are by fingerprints, irises? Google has never gotten into this business. There would be so many issues. And is collecting biometric info an absolute bulletproof way to verify identity? And doesn't have pitfalls compared to current system?

Then how about just ID documents? Who would provide the locations to verify these documents? How many hundreds of types of documents would be suitable to prove identity? And thousands of locations would be necessary to serve everyone. Would they be honest / absolutely trustworthy?

Do you know how many people out there are waiting to try impersonating people by forging documents, given the money at stake, and how many outlets (that you'd have to employ as verification agents) would be susceptible to corruption to defraud people who'd relied on these documents as proof of their identity (and keys to their online accounts)? If you register with an identity document, and that becomes your method of proof, what if someone located in another country asserts that they're you with some different form of a document that says your name on it?

It's extremely complicated.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by praxulus on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:07AM (#32863866)
Google is already in the payments business, which requires a significant amount of identity verification. They aren't at the level you're describing, but they're also not completely new to the business of verifying IDs, albeit via uploaded photographs rather than physical kiosks.
Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by Al-Khwarizmi on Friday September 16, 2022 @07:53AM (#32864871)
Yesterday I opened an online account at a bank, using my phone. The website asked me to take clear pictures of my ID card, and then record a selfie video doing a few movements and saying a few numbers. Done, in literally 5 minutes. Then of course regular logins are done with a password and 2FA, it's not like I have to show my ID every time, but I suppose if I got locked out of my account it's what they would use to identify me.

If banks can do it I don't see why Google can't. For many people, getting locked out of a Google account where they hold all their photos, connect to people via email, have their purchased Android apps, etc. is not much better than getting locked out of a bank account (depends on how much money on the account, I guess, but in many cases this is so).

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by tinaclaussen on Friday September 16, 2022 @09:34AM (#32865845)
the point that no one generally knows your IBAN number or calls the customer service - reset this account by telling this is my new ID card as I lost my previous ID.

Whereas your google email is known to many. What happens if some one photoshops a ID and says it is you?

Further more how should the ID prove I am the owner for john.doe@gmail?

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by mistercheph on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:20AM (#32863959)
It doesn't matter how complicated it is, given how critical a google account can be in a person's life, Google has an obligation to make a good faith effort to resolve issues like these, and if that obligation is not expressed in their terms of service, then legislatures and regulators should compel them by force of law.

The fact is that Google is already in the business of authenticating identities and actually does so in circumstances where the law compels them to, but they have deemed it too expensive to do so in the context of recovering accounts, where they remain uncompelled.

As it stands, the GDPR compels Google to make a meaningful attempt to authenticate whether you are the legitimate account holder when you submit an SAR or Data Deletion Request. But, Google, under no circumstances will attempt to identify you if you fail or are deemed ineligible for their automated account recovery process, unless you are eligible for their "In cases of nepotism or media pressure" emergency account recovery procedure.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by supernova87a on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:56AM (#32864187)
Well, wait a second, I think you're going too far. Just because maybe you use Google to a very dependent level in your life, doesn't make it a public good that people have an entitlement to and suddenly you place legal obligations on them.

Your email is not your identity, and your particular email address is not a right. If Google has made available options to secure your email address, what exactly are you entitled to compel Google to do that does not conflict with the security decisions they've also made to protect your account from fraud?

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by account42 on Friday September 16, 2022 @06:34AM (#32864367)
> Your email is not your identity

Google seems to disagree https://developers.google.com/identity/gsi/web

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by mistercheph on Friday September 16, 2022 @06:39AM (#32864398)
The paradigm of 18th century economic theories, which I doubt that you sincerely subscribe to excepting this one matter, is no longer relevant. When the power wielded over, and the access afforded to an individual by a private corporation is so great that when denied access that person has no meaningful alternative and is meaningfully and irreparably harmed, that does become a matter of public concern. Whether or not users were informed when signing up that google would come to hold the keys over almost the entirety of their identity as it exists on the internet, and that their identity on the internet would come to represent a huge fraction if not the majority of their identity in the world, that is the circumstance we find ourselves in. Our identity on the internet is for most, an essential and non-negotiable element of the infrastructure of the modern world. A person who loses access to that identity may very well be losing access to their only means of employment and their only means of communications with certain friends and family members, and documents that are critical to their freedom and identity in the physical world (scans of passports, birth certificates, vaccination cards.)

The fact is that these corporations are not innocently providing simple little services that users might occasion to use for a bit of time and then freely put down; they provide services that grant them at times more power than nation states over the lives of individuals who are completely powerless to respond. Given that they wield power over a service which is not optional for most of their "clients", whether or not they meant to (they meant to), they are providing a public good. And if they are unwilling to do so in a way that aligns with the values of the citizens of ostensibly democratic nations, then the citizens of those nations should vote to either compel them to offer their services in alignment with the public good or have their property and right to conduct business in that nation seized.

And whether or not many are aware of it, this would not represent a sea-change in policy for any Western government that I know of. This would simply be the very late, but reasonable extension of more than a century of well-established legal precedent that already exists. For example, in the United States, we call corporations that are regulated in such a manner "Public Utilities", in Germany they are called "Öffentliches Versorgungsunternehmen" and in France they are called "Entreprises de Services Publics" and in Spanish they are called "Empresas de Servicios Públicos"

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by rvba on Friday September 16, 2022 @03:51AM (#32863349)
> Right now Google is not asking information that would allow them to really verify my identity.

I have a google account made in 2004 (it is nearly 18 years old) and some time ago youtube started to ask me to verify my age by sending my ID or using a credit card.

I think it was a "bug" on their side, since a google search showed a lot of other people complaining about this -> verify your age.. on a 15+ year old youtube account.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by highwaylights on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:08AM (#32863874)
The identity checks also introduce their own vulnerabilities, in the form of social engineering where there wasn't an escalation route before.

Solutions like yubikeys and passkeys theoretically solve this problem, but open other problems: not least what if you lose the key or the device that the passkey is stored on? Then you're no longer you as far as the authenticating party (Google in this case) is concerned. What's more, whoever stole your phone is you as far as they care, because that's all they have to say who is who.

Your devices should require further authentication (password/biometrics) but is that a guarantee? Could Google or anyone else really guarantee that any client device connecting to their service is unhackable, bearing in mind that many of their users may be on cheaply made and fully out-of-support Android devices or Windows XP?

It's a really hard problem to solve.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by account42 on Friday September 16, 2022 @06:10AM (#32864246)
Since this should only be a last resort you could limit any recovery to accounts that have no recent logged in activity to reduce risk.

Google at least have your past IP addresses which should allow law enforcment to identify you (at least narrow the question down to a handful of people who could all be asked if they have a claim to the account unless you only ever accessed it from public networks). Doing all that detective work is not going to be cheap but right now you don't even have the option to pay for it if your online account is worth a lot to you.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by jesterson on Friday September 16, 2022 @03:44AM (#32863305)
And that's totally fine. People should not treat IT services as something reliable, it is extremely unreliable and prone to many issues thing.

Once it will be understood, losing xx-years accounts wouldn't be a problem.

I know this is controversial idea, but the more I see cases like that, the more I am sure about it

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by paganel on Friday September 16, 2022 @03:53AM (#32863361)
> And that's totally fine. People should not treat IT services as something reliable,

Problem is the "society" around us (for lack of a better word) treats IT services as something reliable, see how more and more countries go digital/electronic only when it comes to payments or relationship with the government.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by jesterson on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:34AM (#32864061)
Exactly. that's why governments love IT and push it - they weaponise it against citizens.
Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by rexf on Friday September 16, 2022 @04:08AM (#32863460)
Websites & apps treat your e-mail or phone number as your identity. Is it ideal? No, but it's reality.

Until everyone can agree on a better system, your e-mail is your online identity across countless websites. This makes losing your e-mail (with no customer support to regain access) a huge vulnerability in everyone's personal life.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by jesterson on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:36AM (#32864074)
Then don't use it? If there would be more reluctance against ubiquitous (and pointless) IT services, perhaps the situation with overreliance wouldn't have happened.
Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by throwaway15908 on Friday September 16, 2022 @04:15AM (#32863508)
I dont know why you get down voted because you are absolutely right.

I would go even further and demand regulators to define standards to enable migration or self hosting.

Re:Tell HN: Locked out of Gmail account even after right pas... by jesterson on Friday September 16, 2022 @05:31AM (#32864028)
Unfortunately HN crowd is more and more resembling reddit communities, where emotional downvoting is a way to express themselves instead of maintaining well argumentative discussion. Doesn't surprise me anymore