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Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by Forge36 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @10:45AM (#32791101)
For those of us not deep into the technical details here: what's this mean?
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by jtolmar on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:14PM (#32791919)
GPS assumes* light travels in a straight line, which it doesn't due to atmospheric effects and reflections off buildings. L5 is a second frequency from the same satellites, which is affected by these problems differently, so the chip can compare the differences between the two signals and guess what's up with the atmosphere and buildings / throw out the dumber looking signal. It's also mostly independent so it's more data. L5 is also a bit less affected by atmosphere inherently.

The upshot is much better accuracy in urban canyons, and a small improvement where GPS was already good.

* Obviously people making chips and apps know this and try to mitigate it.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by tomcam on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:54PM (#32792365)
That was infinitely better than TFA, thanks.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by mikotodomo on Saturday September 10, 2022 @05:53PM (#32794859)
the fucking article? edit: sorry
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by SpectralTheory on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:54AM (#32800697)
or, the fine article :)
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by umanwizard on Saturday September 10, 2022 @07:04PM (#32795272)
I’ve anecdotally found that GPS is much worse in dense cities like New York than in sparse ones like Tucson. Hopefully my next phone will give me better location results.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by hackmiester on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:44PM (#32805857)
This is so real. Last weekend I made it blocks down the road in downtown Atlanta before my phone got a lock worth using.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by willis936 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:48PM (#32792843)
The single frequency situation isn't all that bad though since there are a dozen satellites in view and tracked even in urban outdoor environments.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by jtolmar on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:48PM (#32793437)
It's certainly better than it used to be, since there are more satellites, and a lot of work goes into doing well in these environments (I used to do the GPS integration for Google Maps).

There are two big tricky parts about urban canyons. First, yeah, you still have quite a few satellites, but they're all in the same directions. Satellites directly above you don't really tell you anything. Satellites in front of and behind you can only tell you how far you are along that axis. You don't have any satellites to the sides, because you're in a canyon. So in an idealized version of a really bad urban canyon, the GPS can tell how far you are on the street, but not which street you're on, which is what the user actually wants to know. (I did a lot of work on knowing this from context, but it's still quite a mystery on a cold start.)

The second is that, unlike natural canyons, signals in urban canyons tend to bounce. So instead of seeing the satellite missing, you see it giving a signal that's consistent with if you were in the next street over. Which is the same problem we had in the first place. There's a lot of outlier detection done in the chips, but in a really noisy environment, sometimes that'll inevitably end up throwing out the good data and choosing the outlier.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by dereg on Saturday September 10, 2022 @06:12PM (#32794972)
Awesome explanation. Thank you.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by s1mon on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:01PM (#32792953)
I live in San Francisco. We don't exactly have the tallest buildings, but I can assure you from years of tracking runs in the downtown area here and nearby forested areas, GPS gets very screwed up unless it has a clear view of the sky. This is with a variety of Garmins, Apple iPhones and Apple Watch. I'm looking forward to the newer devices with L5.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by londons_explore on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:13PM (#32793078)
It's known as the 'urban canyon' effect.

It can be significantly reduced if the GPS has access to a 3d model of the nearby buildings - then the GPS can guess which signals are probably reflections and which are direct.

Alas, I think this isn't done outside data centers/labs, because the data download to have a large 3d model to get a GPS fix isn't a service anyone wants to run for free.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by sorenjan on Saturday September 10, 2022 @02:28PM (#32793239)
Uber showed this in 2018, I don't know how widely used it is now. I doubt any phone app uses it offline at least.

https://www.uber.com/en-SE/blog/rethinking-gps/

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by netheril96 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:38PM (#32796620)
Given how many Android phones already have this, maybe you could borrow one and compare? I want to know the answer.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by chanandler_bong on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:23PM (#32792024)
Great, simple answer. Thank you!
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by yababa_y on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:02AM (#32791236)
The short of it is that for the past two decade or so the us govt has been rolling out a new signal that the latest series of GPS satellites transmit that uses 1. more bandwidth, 2. more transmit power, 3. in a protected region of spectrum, 4. using modern encodings and error correction. This makes it a lot easier to pick up the signal from noisy environments.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by toomuchtodo on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:17AM (#32791388)
Are there any specific use cases where this will see outside benefit (urban areas)? Or is it just faster fix and higher precision without PPS/RTK?
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by anotherOneSound on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:22AM (#32791442)
inside of the mall when your weather widget pulls your location every 5 minutes they will better know what stores you went in to in what order
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by dylan604 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:07PM (#32792483)
Wouldn't the WiFi and Bluetooth beacons provide more accurate and more granular points of data than polling GPS for this purpose?
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by capableweb on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:36PM (#32792750)
That would require calibration (this is the layout of the store, the receiver is here, reflections can occur here and so on) while a GPS system would allow owners to just connect to a centralized app and bam, here is where all your visitors walked for the last 3 months.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by dylan604 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:57PM (#32792920)
wow, that's your retort/sales pitch for GPS only tracking? it truly needs some work.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by capableweb on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:59PM (#32792934)
Nope, it's simply information, free for everyone to read :) I'm neither selling or arguing for/against anything.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by JustSomeNobody on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:38AM (#32791577)
Made me chuckle because it's so true...
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by throw0101c on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:03PM (#32791822)
> Are there any specific use cases where this will see outside benefit (urban areas)?

When you only way have one radio signal from a satellite, it is impossible to tell how the ionosphere has effected the signal.

When you have two, and each a slightly different frequency, you can model signal path changes and apply some corrections for better general accuracy.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by fsh on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:38AM (#32791575)
Dual-band GPS allows detecting (and correcting for) multipath interference, i.e. signals bouncing off building and being received multiple times. This should improve accuracy in cities a fair bit.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by tiernano on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:20AM (#32791423)
based on the keynote, they say it will be better in "urban jungles". It was part of the Apple Watch Ultra and said it worked better for the Boston (IIRC) Maraton. I would hope for the phone it works better for navagation in Car Play... I dont know how many times my phone things, when driving forward, that im turning down a side road...
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by js2 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:53AM (#32791733)
Chicago Marathon. The Boston marathon is mostly a very open path.

Source: I watched the keynote and I’ve run both.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by hinkley on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:39AM (#32791587)
Return to the route.

Return to the route.

Return to the…

FUCK YOU SHORESY, I’M ON THE ROUTE.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by willis936 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:51PM (#32792870)
That last bit is a software issue. Apple maps is constantly trying to route me to a parallel street for 1 block in a city and it actually thinks I listen to it. Google maps doesn't have either of these behaviors on the same hardware/APIs.

No, a more accurate GPS will not fix Apple's bugs.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by tiernano on Saturday September 10, 2022 @05:30PM (#32794724)
I'm using waze, not Apple Maps
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by antegamisou on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:00AM (#32791215)
Dual frequency mitigates the ionospheric delay error of GPS signals, yielding more accurate measurements.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by snovv_crash on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:29PM (#32792082)
This. Adding a second channel means that without RTK/PPK you can get ~30cm precision. The rest is just technical details.
Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by lucb1e on Saturday September 10, 2022 @03:34PM (#32793911)
For others who are not into that lingo, RTK/PPK are Real-Time and Post-Processed Kinematics. I had an idea of what the word kinematics means (Wikipedia says "describes the motion of [(groups of)] points") so this sounds like you use the accelerometer and gyroscope in addition to GNSS to get better accuracy, but actually no this has nothing to do with measuring your motion. Instead, RTK is something about signals' phase and requires an additional ground station (sounds similar to differential GPS, but by looking at phase data rather than position offset?), and PPK is never mentioned on Wikipedia and I don't understand descriptions from other sources. Post-processing is mentioned in differential GPS, however, to make the difference between the two topics (DGPS, RTK/PPK) even more confusing.

If you could elaborate, I'd be interested. It seems very specialistic (though you drop it as if it should be obvious) so I doubt most people here know the terms.

Re:iPhone 14 Pro comes with dual-frequency GPS by snovv_crash on Saturday September 10, 2022 @05:39PM (#32794787)
PPK uses exactly the same processing method as RTK, except rather than process in real-time it just logs the information and the merges with afterwards with the data logged from a base station. This is used primarily for remote sensing applications where centimeter accuracy of data is only needed in postprocessing and not at capture time - eg. drones with cameras for 3D reconstruction.

The reason to use PPK is weight and cost - it just uses a normal GPS receiver and doesn't need an RTK sideband antenna, since the base station information can be downloaded over the internet at postprocessing time.

RTK/PPK gives ~3cm precision, while standard GPS gives 6m precision. This new dual-band giving 30cm precision means it is good enough to not use RTK/PPK except in the most demanding applications.