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Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by physicsfox on Friday September 09, 2022 @08:57PM (#32786637)
These claims of prejudice can be so detrimental for wellbeing, whether it's racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, etc. I personally think that this serves as an example of when woke justice goes wrong. Always fact check individually; if one student in that entire college, she could been the one to do some research and stop it before it came too far. This is a great data point of the bystander effect, in that regard. I'm devastated for the bakery owners. :(
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rayiner on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:00AM (#32787685)
It’s also worth pointing out that the victims here aren’t the bakery owners. It’s also minority college students who are persuaded to believe they live in a more racist society than they do. After all, if even the local bakery in a famously liberal college town is racist, then the rest of the country must be much worse right? This perception, in turn, negatively affects their mental health, jobs, and interracial friendships.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by onos on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:24AM (#32787782)
It seems many of the policies advocated for by “the woke” are motivated by such simplistic logic that they ultimately have the opposite effect of their intentions. We must balance grace with truth.

Of course in this case oberlin leadership just acted very poorly and there is no excuse.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rayiner on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:57AM (#32787908)
The "grace" framing makes it sound like it's about being fair to white people. I have some sympathy for people who are falsely accused, but honestly shit happens.

My point is different: that exaggerating racism harms non-white people. I know other Asians who say stuff like "oh, I wouldn't want to go to the south because people are racist." And they're missing out on good food, warm weather, and friendly people. Trump won my precinct (which weirdly encompasses just my subdivision) 58-34 in 2016 when I moved there. It's a lovely place to live with lots of kids and friendly neighbors. A minority who is told by authority figures that the local bakery in Oberlin Ohio is a hotbed of racism might be too scared to come where I live. And that's not good for anybody.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by greenyoda on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:16AM (#32788003)
> I know other Asians who say stuff like "oh, I wouldn't want to go to the south because people are racist."

Interestingly, it was southern states that elected the first two governors of Indian descent: Bobby Jindal in Louisiana (2008-2016)[1] and Nikki Haley in South Carolina (2011-2017)[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Jindal

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikki_Haley

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rayiner on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:49AM (#32788161)
An Indian American has a better shot running for governor in a red southern state than in Maryland or New York. In blue states, race quite explicitly matters a lot in politics. But Indians are at a disadvantage because they Indian voter community is small compared to Black or Hispanic people.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by tptacek on Saturday September 10, 2022 @05:06PM (#32794583)
Did you look at actual data about that, or does it just sound right? Wikipedia's lists of Indian-American politicians doesn't appear to bear this out.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rayiner on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:21PM (#32796552)
Are you accounting for the fact that Asians overwhelmingly live in blue states? 40% of Indians live in just California, New York, and New Jersey. The latter two states have no federal or statewide south Asian politicians. California has had four, but none in statewide office. (Not counting Harris, who identifies as politically Black.)

Red state desis represent a small share of the overall south Asian immigrant population—they mostly come from an earlier wave of migration that has since been vastly outnumbered by post-H1B immigrants to coastal hubs—but have seen outsized success in appointed and elected positions.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by tptacek on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:05AM (#32796727)
I didn't account for anything; I just read what you wrote, said to myself "hm", and went to see if there was data. I'm just asking if you have data. I'm not dunking on you, just trying to calibrate where your comment lies on the spectrum of message board truth.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rayiner on Sunday September 11, 2022 @08:48AM (#32799197)
Indian Americans are a small minority, and Indian American politicians are an even smaller one. I don’t think there is anything but anecdote from which to draw impressions. I think that’s pretty obvious from the nature of the subject without needing a bunch of throat clearing in the comment.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by fennecfoxy on Monday September 12, 2022 @06:38AM (#32808191)
"that exaggerating racism harms non-white people"

Of course it does, but you phrased it in a way that implies that the racist aggressors are always white.

Exaggerating racism & racism itself hurts _everyone_. There are people that are racist to white people, there are non-white people that are racist other non-white people.

It's racism itself, in a general sense that we're fighting. I think especially in a non-white context, as it's so ignored - I've had non-white friends be incredibly racist to other cultures and it's oddly just a weirdly accepted thing. Like before recent events in Hong Kong, a friend of mine from there talking about "mainlanders" and how trashy/uncultured/animals they are.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by Der_Einzige on Saturday September 10, 2022 @05:39AM (#32789160)
Idk man, if you actually can write decently well, it's not that hard to get a professorship or think tank role in one of these "grievance studies" majors. That's pretty good for your career. Hell, they may end up as an ethics in AI professional at the FAANG making 300K a year!

It turns out that in a world that rewards virtue signaling financially, you can literally major in it!

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by tbrownaw on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:51PM (#32786923)
> Always fact check individually; if one student in that entire college, she could been the one to do some research and stop it before it came too far.

One of the previous threads here had a link to a pdf somewhere in the comments, that looked like it had excerpts from the court filings. It had quite a few emails saying variants on "my experience with them says these accusations aren't true at all".

So no, I don't think one student pushing back would have helped.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by scarab92 on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:28PM (#32787488)
It's a town of 8000 people, of which 4000 are college students and staff.

When you gather that many social justice warriors together in a location where there is no actual injustice to prosecute, they will creatively invent some so that they can do the thing they enjoy doing.

You see a similar pattern with firefighters. When there haven't been many recent fires to put out, you start seeing more firefighters getting arrested for arson.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by polski-g on Saturday September 10, 2022 @03:35AM (#32788672)
Fire fighters are 94% volunteers. So not sure why they'd do that...
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by xhkkffbf on Tuesday September 13, 2022 @11:28AM (#32825569)
Many small towns pay their volunteer firefighters when they respond. They just don't get paid when there's no fire.

See here:

"It is important to know that most of the fire stations/departments do not pay for the services of a volunteer firefighter. However, they may get reimbursed for attending training and meetings, responding to fires and emergencies, and time spent on shifts. The amount of reimbursement is generally at the discretion of the fire department."

https://www.firesciencedegreeschools.com/how-to-become-a-vol....

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by timellis-smith on Saturday September 10, 2022 @07:54AM (#32789827)
As a former volunteer wildfire firefighter we definitely had instances of (former) volunteers engaging in arson for the thrill of putting out fires.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by remuskaos on Saturday September 10, 2022 @03:14AM (#32788565)
Citation needed
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by scarab92 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @10:36AM (#32791033)
For the firefighters? Here's a starting point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefighter_arson
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by devwastaken on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:25AM (#32788051)
Oberlin lost because it was the dean and admins themselves that perpetuated it. They printed and handed out flyers about it. If they're federally funded they need to be blacklisted from student loans and grants. Once closed, wipe it clean and start over. Or else that culture will infect and continue to cause irrepairable harm.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by deweller on Saturday September 10, 2022 @08:18AM (#32789979)
> Once closed, wipe it clean and start over

This is exactly the kind of cancel culture that Oberlin demonstrated toward the bakery. "They did something unforgivable! Eliminate them!"

Organizations have problems. People are imperfect. Society needs justice. But cancel culture is a mob mentality that goes far beyond justice and is harmful to society.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by luckylion on Saturday September 10, 2022 @06:14PM (#32794980)
> "They did something unforgivable! Eliminate them!"

They claimed it falsely and without evidence though. The same is not true for any action that would be taking against the college.

When someone claims that a random person committed a crime, kidnaps and imprisons them, we call that kidnapping and false imprisonment. But we won't shy away from taking the perpetrator off the street and in turn locking them up so they don't do it again.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by emmelaich on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:18PM (#32787094)
It's a pity that Meredith Raimondo was not personally sued for defamation.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by AussieWog93 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:54AM (#32788187)
She probably would have been if she had $36 million in cash. :)
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by pipeline_peak on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:35PM (#32787543)
I think a lot of times the catalyst is if you don’t agree due to insufficient evidence, or choose to shop there then “you’re the problem”.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by llanowarelves on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:42PM (#32787588)
And if you don't join in: "Silence is violence"
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by sn0w_crash on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:22PM (#32786753)
We may need laws in place that prevent public accusations of this category of career-ending adjectives.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by hirundo on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:41PM (#32786876)
Here's the flyer that was fatal to Oberlin's case:

https://firstamendmentwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/S...

"This is a RACIST establishment ...": That's a statement of opinion, not actionable.

"... with a LONG ACCOUNT of RACIAL PROFILING and DISCRIMINATION.": That's a statement of fact, and it was therefore actionable and cost Oberlin's insuror millions.

That seems like a reasonable way to split the difference between free speech and libel.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by Ferrotin on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:26PM (#32787149)
Are you a lawyer with experience handling these kinds of cases? "This is a RACIST establishment ..." sounds like a defamatory statement to my naive ears when it is made without any fact behind it.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by jlawson on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:52PM (#32787269)
The power of the word "racist" (like all woke-words) is that it has lots of definitions, which the speaker can slip between depending on the needs of the moment.

In this case, the two definitions and their purposes would be:

Definition 1. "One not actively working to create equal outcomes for non-white groups (even simply being neutral/disinterested is racist in this definition)". This is the definition of racist in the popular How to Be an Antiracist. This would be used to attach the word to the target.

Definition 2. "One directly and intentionally harming people of non-white races out of conscious and deliberate hatred". Basically the KKK definition. This is the implication that's attached to the target, after definition 1 is used to "stick" the word onto the target.

It's an amazing "stick and stab" tactic that, somehow, we haven't yet developed cultural antibodies against.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by brightball on Friday September 09, 2022 @11:30PM (#32787501)
When did “non-white” get included into the definition of racism exactly? Those definitions are…I can’t find the word…
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by Gigachad on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:57AM (#32788207)
The modern redefinition of racism is that it requires someone both be classically racist as well as having a higher privilege than the victim. So if you are racist to someone perceived as being higher privilege, it isn’t racist.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by MomoXenosaga on Saturday September 10, 2022 @06:21AM (#32789321)
To be fair people of "higher privilege" probably don't care too much what the unfortunates think of them.

But what annoys me is that class is now equated with race. There are millions of poor whites in America who are not nor ever will be privileged.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rendall on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:24AM (#32788042)
> "stick and stab" tactic

Nice. I have heard the term motte and bailey used to describe that tactic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motte-and-bailey_fallacy

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by jlawson on Monday September 19, 2022 @09:54PM (#32906706)
Motte and bailey is defensive, stick and stab is offensive.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by scarab92 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:00AM (#32787686)
Who considers "not actively working to create equal outcomes for non-white groups" racism?

I would be surprised if this reframing is accepted by enough of the population for a court to accept it.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rayiner on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:03AM (#32787706)
That’s literally the thesis of a very popular book that appeared on a bunch of corporate reading lists in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibram_X._Kendi
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by matt-attack on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:09AM (#32787967)
I think the point is that, while the book was popular, one doesn’t just get to redefine a word using a new opinion.

The entire premise is ludicrous but it’s shocking how many just adopt that line of thinking without any critical thought.

“If you’re not actively fighting against illegal rhino poaching, you are a literally a poacher. It’s not enough to simply “not poach”. You must actively go around physically stopping other poachers.”

Point being you can’t just pick one pet issue and proclaim that anyone who isn’t actively involved in irradiating that issue is necessarily complicit in the issue. There are just too many causes one might be interested in.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by itsthejb on Saturday September 10, 2022 @06:26AM (#32789348)
There is an example that always comes to my mind regarding this “logic”, and which I think used to crop up from other commentators around this. It’s potentially even more powerful since it comes from the other side of the political fence: The beginning of The War On Terror (™), and “if you aren’t with us, you’re with the terrorists”. This is exact the same manipulative fallacy. However, pointing this out would need to assume those using it are good faith actors, whereas I’d suggest this argument is evidence of bad faith
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by josephcsible on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:48AM (#32787866)
Yep, it's entirely based around the equivocation fallacy. "Bats are small flying mammals. Baseball is played with bats. Therefore, baseball is played with small flying mammals."
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by toomuchtodo on Friday September 09, 2022 @09:32PM (#32786824)
https://cpj.org/reports/2016/03/north-america/

Some states have them, some don’t, and the US Constitution’s First Amendment puts limits on the laws that do exist.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by remarkEon on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:06AM (#32787715)
It's 1A but it's also SCOTUS precedent. If NYT v. Sullivan were to be revisited, these limits could change. Justice Thomas has expressed (on multiple occasions, though I don't have the opinions handy) that he wants to do that. Personally I think it should be revisited. The recent case of a Duke volleyball student claiming that racial epithets were yelled at her during a came turned out to be false, but not after the usual cycle of social media enabled outrage. I bring it up because it's another instance where all of the facts are easily verifiable, and journalists seem to not care to actually look at them and report what actually happened.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by puffoflogic on Saturday September 10, 2022 @11:10AM (#32791328)
Well we can't have SCOTUS following the suggestions of racists like Thomas. /s?
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by pyuser583 on Saturday September 10, 2022 @12:25AM (#32787789)
Laws like that are in place, and they’re what ended McCarthyism.

One problem is they are very civilly focused. How much money did you lose? A corporate execute might be out millions, while the guy at MacDonalds might be out a few thousand.

Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by bosswipe on Friday September 09, 2022 @10:58PM (#32787303)
I don't feel too bad for them and their $36 mill.
Re:Oberlin College to pay $36M to bakery owners who were fal... by rendall on Saturday September 10, 2022 @01:27AM (#32788056)
The husband did not have the energy to fight both lawsuit and cancer. They won the lawsuit, but he lost to cancer.