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Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by rad_gruchalski on Saturday September 03, 2022 @08:43PM (#32708319)
> In many ways this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. An organization thinks software engineers aren't very important. And it doesn't pay the sort of salaries you need to get the top talent. So it doesn't have any top-tier software engineers, and their software team struggles to deliver valuable projects.

And you can see this in their hiring. All full of interns. I remember when VW was advertising a “software school”. They were bragging about teaching dozens of “software engineers”.

The people who run these businesses think that writing software is like being a mechanic. That there’s some “end state” in software. These companies have no software culture. All that matters to them, and especially in Germany, is phds. They don’t care about software, they care that they employ a high number of phds.

Funny story. I remember attending an event at Telekom some years back. People from Fraunhofer ISST were on the panel discussing how to bring quality to a major European software initiative that is currently often on the news. Another point was to come up with an idea how to run an org that can maintain said sovereign platform in a transparent manner.

I asked them a question: why not to hand it over to the universities? Why not set up a number of working groups and use it as a platform to teach competent people on a real world, high profile system. You know: r&d, devops, monitoring, service, bug fixing, new features. Sounds like a great opportunity to teach future software generations, no?

You know what was the reaction of the ceo of Fraunhofer, the said man who was running that panel? He laughed and replied: “do you know how bad German universities are?” He said that in public in front of dozens of attendees. I was left speechless.

So if add 2 and 2, you understand what is happening. Everybody is happy with the status quo.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by gumby on Saturday September 03, 2022 @09:47PM (#32708885)
This is the model for the tron/itron os in Japan. Most devices you buy from Japan run itron.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by rad_gruchalski on Saturday September 03, 2022 @09:51PM (#32708910)
Yeah, I still cannot get over that answer.

I mean, Fraunhofer is a major German research org and it should be in their business to promote such solutions. To fire something like this out, in front of the people who definitely attended those universities, that was shocking.

To this day I don’t know if I was simply naive or if my question was stupid in any way.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by Nathanba on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:03AM (#32709699)
It sounds like you were in a meeting discussing how to set up a separate organization and your suggestion was to give the work to people who are doing a poor job already and then you are hoping that they'll suddenly stop failing if you give them access to private company details, work projects, even research. I think the mindset in these parts of Europe is that the companies are where you do real work and anyone who is actually good will find their way into a company anyway. Everyone who attends these universities knows that they are bad, it would not be a shock. They are there not because of the university but because of their own work ethic.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by ahartmetz on Sunday September 04, 2022 @02:53AM (#32710544)
To be fair, German universities are really bad at software engineering. CS in Germany is highly theoretical.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by Gravityloss on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:10AM (#32710947)
if Fraunhofer also a competitor to universities?
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by arghnoname on Sunday September 04, 2022 @05:16AM (#32711284)
By and large, the 'best' research institutes in Germany are not the universities, but Max Planck and institutes like Fraunhofer. They may be loosely affiliated with the universities, but the University faculty and the research faculty are not one and the same. Students getting a doctorate may have that doctorate minted by the affiliated university, but all real work actually happens at the research institute.

Students can get doctorates directly from German universities and research is done there, but it's just not organized like American universities. Prime prestige centers are research institutes and they're spread around the country.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by brianwawok on Saturday September 03, 2022 @09:14PM (#32708615)
And the US will continue to eat their lunch. How many high impact software companies are coming out of Germany?
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by petre on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:24AM (#32709816)
SAP. But you wouldn't want to work with SAP anyway. Death by a thousand cuts.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by hef19898 on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:11AM (#32710949)
The alternative being? Another ERP system that does the same thing dressed up differently. Cobsidering how many comoanies world wide run SAP, it is fair to say that a true exonomic backbone software comes from Germany. If you take away SAP over night, we are all in a derp recession. If you you take away Facebook overbight, what would happen? Or Amazon, excluding AWS of course?
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by pjmlp on Sunday September 04, 2022 @01:31AM (#32710126)
Pay and benefits are good, 40 h/w + extra when overtime happens, 30 day vacation,....
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by rad_gruchalski on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:42PM (#32714886)
In Germany it is: a) 24 days vacation for 6 day working week, and b) 20 days for 5 day working week. That’s a minimum but there are also 11 days statutory national holidays in Germany (some Bundesländern have 12). The end result is a minimum of 31 paid out of work days if your work week is 5 days.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by martin8412 on Sunday September 04, 2022 @03:25AM (#32710709)
That's the default for everyone working in Europe
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by rolisz on Sunday September 04, 2022 @05:05AM (#32711236)
Europe is composed of a lot of countries, which all have different laws. In Romania, minimum vacation days are 20 days and very few companies give more than that, except maybe for seniority.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by ChuckNorris89 on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:20AM (#32711009)
It's not. Most jobs in most countries get less than 30 days vacation. Germany's German speaking neighbors it's 25 days.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by PicassoCTs on Sunday September 04, 2022 @05:13AM (#32711270)
Is it really though? I ve been going around european companies and its all work till you drop 80h culture and no holiday, cause we need a guy on standbye. That stuff only ever exists on paper.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by ahartmetz on Sunday September 04, 2022 @05:56AM (#32711474)
Which companies in which countries? I'm in Germany and I have never ever seen or (from friends and acquaintances) heard of vacations not taken due to pressure from the employer. It's about as common as an employer arbitrarily deciding to transfer less than the agreed amount of salary at the end of the month - maybe some very dubious employers have done it at some point, but it's not something to worry about.

What is fairly common is employers reminding employees to take their vacation days before they expire. Vacation days from year n expire in April or so of year n+1. That is intended to prevent postponing vacations to never (maybe until switching jobs).

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by PicassoCTs on Sunday September 04, 2022 @10:40AM (#32713557)
Im in germany, and the pressure is there. Old employer at least gave vacations, but shifted them as needed. New employer basically denies vacations categorically, cause nobody else can take care of the system.

All this talk about labour laws etc. its like people hallucinating, cause in my world this just aint real.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by pjmlp on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:08PM (#32714487)
https://www.arbeitsrecht.de/

Complaining without asking for legal help, well don't complain.

And given we are talking about IT here, IG Metal is another place to get help.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by pjmlp on Sunday September 04, 2022 @06:23AM (#32711583)
Which countries, I have worked in several European countries, and none of them were that bad.

That looks like a case that needs to be reported to work inspection authorities.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by pjmlp on Sunday September 04, 2022 @06:25AM (#32711589)
Nope, it is common in central and northern Europe, in other countries that would be part of extra package on top of what the local law requires.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by zxienin on Saturday September 03, 2022 @10:59PM (#32709344)
> do you know how bad German universities are?

I am surprised from this quoted comment. Are German unis really bad? Why is there such a perception?

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by foepys on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:45AM (#32709924)
Fraunhofer Society is a conglomerate of various research institutions. A lot of research in Germany is being done not at universities but at dedicated institutions like the Fraunhofer Society, the Max Planck Society, and many more.

The Fraunhofer CEO probably meant that the research part of German universities is bad, which is their main "competitor". This is still a ridiculous take and I attribute this to the general arrogance that was already mentioned by GP.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by j-krieger on Sunday September 04, 2022 @08:28AM (#32712309)
Yea, I am German myself and I really do not get this comment. I‘ve studied abroad and US universities / colleges are laughably easy in comparison. Grade inflation is a real thing and the result of inflated college fees.

Most US courses did not count as credit for my masters because they are too easy to get 100% in and they rarely cover even half of the average course load at TUM.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by fabian_shipamax on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:41PM (#32717500)
Agreed
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by mellavora on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:58AM (#32711198)
I have been involved in several comparisons of German to US universities. The good German ones are ahead of most/all US ones in terms of several academic measures.

Though most of those measures are about research output (# papers published, # high-impact papers, # awards won by faculty weighted by award prestige, # post-docs placed to tenure-track positions, # conferences chaired, # journal editors...)

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by gumby on Sunday September 04, 2022 @02:38AM (#32710470)
German universities are mostly so-so but that is true everywhere. There are some very good professors all over Europe as well.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by aksss on Saturday September 03, 2022 @09:17PM (#32708646)
but free, ammaright?
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by Yoric on Sunday September 04, 2022 @03:45AM (#32710808)
I don't know. I come from a European university. When I was faced with US or UK students (I've been both an academic and a professional dev), I was scared by how little many of them actually knew. They were much better than us at communicating, much more self-assured, but were lacking other key skills.

:shrug:

That's one of the things that are really hard to compare, I guess.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by rad_gruchalski on Saturday September 03, 2022 @09:25PM (#32708710)
I don’t understand your question. What do you mean by “but free”?
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by chihuahua on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:53AM (#32709962)
I think the parent comment can be interpreted as "German universities are bad, but free" (the students don't pay tuition fees, or only a trivial amount)
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by TMWNN on Sunday September 04, 2022 @03:22AM (#32710695)
aksss is being sarcastic. When universities are compared across nations, a frequent retort to the preeminence of the top US universities is "But universities in [insert European country here] are free!". aksss's point is that, as MrBuddyCasino indicated, you tend to get what you pay for.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by foepys on Sunday September 04, 2022 @03:27AM (#32710720)
US metrics based on research programs for how good a university is don't apply to Europe. Comparisons based on those are worthless and the fact it is still being done frequently can be attributed to either incompetence or malice.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by arghnoname on Sunday September 04, 2022 @05:22AM (#32711320)
Yes, it's so obviously a completely ridiculous metric that it has to be willful at this point. It doesn't seem like anyone tries to measure how well educated the undergraduates are in terms of skills acquired, etc, by how many papers a totally different population occupying a similar space pump out instead.

It shouldn't need to be said, but no amount of Nobel prizes in the world is going to make one whit of difference for introductory calculus instruction. When the prime research centers are decoupled from the universities and these silly little metrics, it's no wonder that European universities are "bad."

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by MrBuddyCasino on Sunday September 04, 2022 @02:45AM (#32710504)
Lack of market forces leading to mediocrity I suppose?
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by jfim on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:04AM (#32710912)
Or lack of a profit motive leading to not trying to game metrics as much. If an entity is ranked by some metric, and the better they are that metric, the more profitable they are, then they have an incentive to game it as much as possible.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by WalterBright on Sunday September 04, 2022 @04:14AM (#32710961)
Metrics are gamed in every organization.
Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by jfim on Sunday September 04, 2022 @11:45AM (#32714239)
Sure, but I would assume that the priorities for a private university are different than a public one. A private university might optimize for profitability and university ranking, while a public one might optimize for providing the most accessible and highest quality education while staying within budgetary guidelines.

It's like saying that American universities are the best on the "amount spent on American football facilities per student" ranking. It's true, but the other universities might not be competing on that particular metric and focusing on other ones.

Re:Porsche boss faces software woes keeping VW a step behind... by WalterBright on Sunday September 04, 2022 @12:05PM (#32714455)
> while a public one might optimize for providing the most accessible and highest quality education while staying within budgetary guidelines.

That doesn't seem like what they're optimizing for. Public institutions tend to optimize for maximum budget, maximum head count, and maximum power.