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Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by screye on Thursday September 01, 2022 @06:17PM (#32684093)
Airbnb and uber for all their benefits have taken away a lot of urban planning capabilities of local govts. At the same time, they expose the general unwillingness of local govts to accomodate the need of the population or those who bring in economic value (tourists, transplants).

If you are becoming a tourist hub, then create an off-town tourist area and add a convenient transit line/people mover to the central parts of town. Tourists get reasonable housing, locals don't get displaced and the influx of population does not destroy the cultural vibe of your town.

Prohibition never works, and piracy is a reflection of an unmet need. Banning things merely airs out open wounds, and leads to grey-markets such as shady uber/airbnb equivalents within the city. If you want to reduce abortions, banning merely leads to riskier abortions. Examples of this are dime a dozen.

When demand arrives, the cities MUST adjust to incoming demand. Couple examples of working uncomfortable compromises are: 1. Paris - Choose a small district and allow it to go full skyscraper. The rest of the town maintains its architectural identity. 2. Barcelona - Go full superblock. Means that tourist activity gets neatly distributed across the city (removing bottlenecks) and tourists do not lead to increase in car traffic.

I could go on and on, but 1 fundamental truth stays. Bottlenecks only help those who control access to it. The key is to eliminate the bottleneck (more housing). Band-aids (rent-control) or equitable distribution of bottleneck gains (no-renters->only-homeowners/ more single-family-housing) never works. It only leads to the situation festering (see Bay Area / SF), and makes for an even harder problem in the future.

I'm not sure if my comment conveys any cohesive point, but I hope folks get something out of it.

p.s: fuck NIMBYs

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by nextos on Thursday September 01, 2022 @07:12PM (#32684591)
I truly agree with most of what you say.

This famous article discusses why housing is becoming a huge problem everywhere and why that's super bad for the economy: https://www.worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-e.... It's been discussed here a few times, e.g.: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28531025.

The compromise Barcelona made is not enough. Sadly, that beautiful city is IMHO the prototypical case of getting ruined by too much tourism.

In their defense, I think it's safe to state all mid-to-large cities in EU are quite crowded and unaffordable. For example, Copenhagen used to be a place where citizens enjoyed great purchasing power. Despite rent control and sale taxes, a single person in a well-paying job can hardly afford a mortgage for a decent flat right now. The same can be said of Munich, Madrid, London and many, many other places.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by daemoens on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:50PM (#32686026)
Rent control usually causes rents to go up in the non-rent controlled areas. It just accelerates the unaffordability of all housing.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by finikytou on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:33AM (#32689023)
not only that. rent control also causes less properties to be for rent. if its not making enough money renting my property with bother? ill just keep it empty until price climbs and ill sell it. in paris they pushed rent control + they forbid you to rent your appartement is the apartment is not energy efficient enough. guess what? people that should renovate for becoming energy efficient have no real incentive to do it because anyway renovating an apartment will not allow them to rent it at higher price. they'll just hold onto it or sell it.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by nextos on Saturday September 03, 2022 @08:56AM (#32701429)
Rent control in Copenhagen is perhaps different than in other places, as there is just a very light control to avoid crazy prices and scams.

In practice, it's a free market and landlords have by no means been discouraged to offer flats.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by pipodeclown on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:59AM (#32688396)
Sure, but why on earth would any tourist choose to stay at some off site tourist hub? The whole point of visiting a historic city like say Lisbon, is that you get the stay in an historic city, not some modern off site tourist hub where you get to take a crammed full tourist bus to the centre..

Or would you propose strict accompanying zoning laws with strict enforcement? I think that would meet stiff resistance from property owners but would be feasible. I do think all of this would make the destination much less attractive to visit though so it really comes down to how much you want/need the tourists.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by merry_flame on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:30PM (#32695396)
I sympathize with your first point, but I believe only around 10% of tourists visiting Venice sleep there. Off-site tourist hubs are a real thing…
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Hermitian909 on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:36AM (#32686643)
> Prohibition never works, and piracy is a reflection of an unmet need. Banning things merely airs out open wounds, and leads to grey-markets such as shady uber/airbnb equivalents within the city.

What do you mean by "works"? Yes, grey markets will pop up, but if Portugal banned AirBnB style renting that the market for that housing wouldn't shrink?

It seems to me that prohibition might be a useful tool in a more comprehensive set of policies to address the problem.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by intothemild on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:00AM (#32687947)
I wish more cities would ban or limit AirBnB.

Take Amsterdam for example.

A good decade ago, it was crowded in the tourism months (summer), but not too bad. Now it's crowded in the off season too, and during the summer months even more so, to the point where walking around is really hard.

The mayor seems to constantly want to get rid of cannabis, which won't solve the problem, the issue isn't the weed tourism... it's the unfettered tourism.

These things can be controlled, you can control how much tourists you have by limiting the amount of hotels you have in your city. But with AirBnB you lose all control on how many tourists.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by tbdenney on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:29AM (#32688168)
AirBnB already is limited in Amsterdam: "According to Dutch regulations, you can only rent out your entire home in Amsterdam for a maximum of 30 nights per year, unless you have a specific permit that allows you to rent out your home for more nights, such as a short term stay license."

https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/860/amsterdam

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by bamboozled on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:35PM (#32696468)
Lived in Amsterdam a few years back, the AirBNBs made it freaking torture during summer.

The old wooden buildings where one could hear everything, people arriving and talking loudly in the stairwells then banging their suitcases up the stairs etc.

We left, couldn't deal wit it.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by ricardobayes on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @03:42PM (#32742235)
I feel your pain, it's definitely a big problem in many places in Europe. Bad construction + overcrowded = Noisy. That said I grew up in a concrete high-rise 'high density' building in Eastern Europe, and I can't recall that I ever heard any neighbor.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by Yaa101 on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:41AM (#32689065)
But still the problems are not solved, it is not only airbnb, like many places we are in the endgame of neoliberalism which is the wholesale of other peoples property to rich people by the corrupt political class.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by pjmlp on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:45AM (#32687031)
Nowadays people offering AirBnB rentals have to register themselves or they will be fined.

How much control is happening, no idea, probably none as usual.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jhugo on Friday September 02, 2022 @02:22AM (#32687235)
This is the type of thing that controlling is very difficult and thus expensive. As a result it's done at a pretty minimal level everywhere.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by intothemild on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:02AM (#32687968)
The thing is... it's not actually. If you made a law to force AirBnB to share data on who is making the listing with the government, you have your register of who to tax/etc.

You could also make laws to limit the number of properties per person, and if you're even smarter, you could use that in conjunction with a map of relationships between people, so you could limit the number of people putting listings in their family members names to get around any limitations.

AirBnB has the data to assist governments.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jhugo on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:22AM (#32688119)
> If you made a law to force AirBnB to share data on who is making the listing with the government, you have your register of who to tax/etc.

Airbnb will probably follow your law, but other platforms that do not will flourish. They will be difficult to regulate, given that they won't be in your jurisdiction.

> You could also make laws to limit the number of properties per person.

Many laws already exist that give unfavourable tax treatment to second and subsequent properties. They are widely avoided through family members and legal entity structures and a hand-wavy "map of relationships between people" isn't going to magically fix that. This would also have a fairly obvious negative effect: it would artificially limit supply in the rental market, driving up prices. A person who could have invested in multiple properties and supplied them to the rental market will instead supply at most one, and invest the rest of their money elsewhere.

There isn't some nefarious conspiracy preventing effective regulation in this area. It's just a legitimately hard problem.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by pjmlp on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:18AM (#32688546)
Well, it doesn't help that many inspectors actually have to use public transports and be paid later from their travel expenses, so their control area is anyway minimal.

At least that is how remember how bad it used to be.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by zo1 on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:33PM (#32692746)
As much as your ideas would work, I don't want to live in the world that you are envisioning in your brain.
Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by bobthepanda on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:04AM (#32686466)
Not all additional tourist revenue is worth the marginal costs. And cities have no obligation to host visitors they don’t want.

Hotels are usually limited because they are unpleasant neighbors for actual residents. It’s not really a surprise that’s the main issue people have with AirBnB rentals.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by wikfwikf on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:40AM (#32688246)
I'm generally a YIMBY and in favor of housing, but are we really so sure that new housing will solve the problems in cities like Barcelona or Lisbon (where tourists and people coming in attracted by the good quality of life generally have higher disposable incomes than most locals).

If you just add housing, isn't it possible that the effect is like adding roads to prevent traffic congestion? The number of people coming in just increases even more until the marginal attractiveness is the same. From the point of view of locals this means that there are even more outsiders, and the affordability is just as bad.

Re:The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal by jbirer on Friday September 02, 2022 @09:53AM (#32690868)
In Bucharest, the city started cracking on AirBNB, the problem is that the landlords are greedy and will risk legal action to get that sweet foreigner money. Not sure how much we can blame the local governments on this one.