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Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by quest88 on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:17AM (#32676541)
How will nuclear solve the problem? Does it provide enough energy?
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by acidburnNSA on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:24AM (#32676658)
It's the only energy source that can run 24/7 on a tiny land footprint without emitting carbon or being overly dependent on local weather.

The one nuclear plant in California makes 10% of the entire states electricity. And last night the state assembly voted 31/1 to not prematurely shut it down as planned.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by falcolas on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:39AM (#32676939)
> or being overly dependent on local weather.

It was interesting to see (thanks, Europe) how nuclear power plants are still somewhat susceptible to global climate change, since they require vast amounts of water below a certain temperature to run.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by acidburnNSA on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:07AM (#32677407)
Those are administrative limits set before climate change to help protect fish. You can solve the problem by keeping fish farther away from the outlets.

Nuclear plants can also be cooled with nearly zero water usage, using dry cooling (dump heat straight to air basically with air radiators). This is more expensive, but may make sense as climate change kicks in. It's perfectly doable and safe.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by Gwypaas on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:43AM (#32678065)
So you're with more words saying - lets take the by far most expensive energy source and make it more expensive?

Today creating hydrogen from solar and burning it in a turbine is competitive with new built nuclear. Not that anyone suggests it for anything else than emergencies, since the round trip efficiency cost would be ludicrous.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by acidburnNSA on Thursday September 01, 2022 @01:30PM (#32679913)
Markets are currently broken. People are looking at low LCOE for gas, wind, and solar without it having any capability to consider factors like greenhouse gas emissions (for gas), cost of capacity overbuilds and storage needed for intermittency at scale (for wind/solar), increased transmission lines (for dispersed sources, again wind/solar).

Yet everyone just says "ok nuclear is the most expensive and always will be no matter what"

Add in a carbon fee and a low-carbon capacity market and all of a sudden nuclear would be the cheapest.

Markets are human constructs that are currently woefully messed up and leading us in dangerous directions.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by Gwypaas on Thursday September 01, 2022 @04:18PM (#32682507)
Capacity over build is already factored into LCOE for renewables, right there in the definition.

Transmission lines are not but comparing how many HVDC lines you can get for the difference between renewables and a single nuclear reactor is laughable. This is not even mentioning the cost that has gone into building the current grid in a hub and spoke model around big centralized producers.

Not that we need to throw it away, but it is worth mentioning when talking nuclear. Especially new builds.

Power 2 X makes storage solved at costs lower or in line to nuclear. Not that anyone would accept those costs.

The real interesting research which is currently happening is around grid forming inverts. Being able create a country wide grid without any synchronous producers or coupling.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by acidburnNSA on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:52AM (#32686733)
> Capacity over build is already factored into LCOE for renewables, right there in the definition.

The way people argue about it, no it absolutely not. CAISO generates about 25,000 MWd in a day. If you just use LCOE you would say, ok let's take the LCOE in $/MWh, convert to $/MWd and multiply them for each energy source. Wow look how cheap 100% wind and solar are!

But oops they totally missed the fact that oops in Winter they have to build at least 4x capacity to fill up the shockingly large amount of chemical batteries (hundreds of skyscrapers full) and wires during the windy/sunny periods, and then rebuild all of this stuff every 25 years. Now it looks very expensive and crazy.

The 92% capacity factor nuclear plant running for 80 years is looking good.

Wind and solar alone are the cheapest forms of energy as tents are the cheapest form of housing.

Many studies suggest that a good mixture of hydro, nuclear, wind, and solar are the ideal. Let's not rule out nuclear due to current market quirks.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by croes on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:31AM (#32676787)
We see in France how good that works.

And we don't fear russia bombing Ukraine's WECs

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by acidburnNSA on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:34AM (#32676848)
Climate change and the 8 million people who die per year from fossil and renewable biofuel combustion products (WHO numbers) are far more concerning. Nuclear solves wayyy more problems than it causes.

Oh and nuclear fission used in breeder reactors is just as renewable as the fusion fuel in the sun that powers wind/solar/hydro/bio. We can make 100% of the world's primary energy for 4 billion years with nuclear before running out of fuel.

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by WaitWaitWha on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:22AM (#32676621)
Absolutely; the following countries have most of their electricity made by nuke plants[0]:

   France   69.0%
   Ukraine  55.0%
   Slovakia 52.3%
   Belgium  50.8%
   Hungary  46.8%
[0] International atomic energy agency; US Energy Information Administration Updated: August 2022
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by berkut on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:33AM (#32676833)
It can solve the problem: that doesn't mean there aren't other potential issues that need to be handled correctly. Take France for instance - it's currently becoming a net importer of electricity due to many (~60%) of its Nuclear reactors being offline for maintenance.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by vitiral on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:27AM (#32676724)
"8 kWh of heat can be generated from 1 kg of coal, approx. 12 kWh from 1 kg of mineral oil and around 24,000,000 kWh from 1 kg of uranium-235." https://www.euronuclear.org/glossary/fuel-comparison/

That is 24 giga watt hours from a kg or uranium. The article says California is set to "top 48 gigawatts" on some days. If it stayed at peak usage all year 48 * 24 * 365 / 24 = 17,520 kg of uranium for constant peak California consumption.

That seems like a lot until you think about how much oil it saves

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by sologoub on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:28AM (#32677789)
Interesting thought experiment - for the same capacity, we’d need 2300 sq.mi of photovoltaic gross land[1], assuming we need to way overbuild let’s make that 3x (6900 sq. mi). That’s equivalent to ~15% of Mojave desert being covered in solar and not accounting for battery storage needed.

That same capacity would require 26 Diablo canyon equivalent stations or only 30.5 sq.mi. [2]

Of course, Greater Los Angeles area itself is 33,954 sq.mi, so if we assume 10% of that are roofs, parking lots and other structures that can be covered with a solar panel setup somehow (big assumption, but this is a thought experiment after all), we’d have close to 1/2 of the total already covered. Add other populated areas in CA and things don’t look so outlandish with some combination of Nuclear/storage/solar.

The big question is whether we have the social cohesion to pull this off or not. The train from LA to SF mess has me worried here…

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_plants_in_the_Mo... [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diablo_Canyon_Power_Plant

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by ZeroGravitas on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:45AM (#32678109)
The initial quote is for "heat" energy. To get that into electricity in a steam turbine you lose about 2/3rds of it.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by vitiral on Friday September 02, 2022 @09:06AM (#32690236)
Pretty sure modern steam conversion is now over 50%, should be higher for super heated. It's come a long ways.
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by Gwypaas on Thursday September 01, 2022 @11:46AM (#32678125)
Great that the alternative is renewables then. Arguing against fossil fuels is a strawman.

You also have to consider what you need to get that 1kg of U-235 and building your huge power plant. This is called doing a life-cycle analysis. In that it has been shown the wind power is by far the cheapest in terms of material use, and solar and nuclear is about equal.

> The TMR (total material requirement) of nuclear power generation is significantly lower than that of thermal power generation and is similar to that of renewables. On the basis of the low greenhouse gas emissions associated with nuclear power generation, like renewables, it can be considered favorable not only from the global warming perspective but also from a resource use perspective.

"Life cycle resource use of nuclear power generation considering total material requirement"

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965262...

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by thepasswordis on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:19AM (#32676568)
Yes
Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by tbihl on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:20AM (#32676589)
It does if you build it.

Edit: a typo

Re:California Declares Grid Emergency by swarnie on Thursday September 01, 2022 @10:22AM (#32676633)
Far better than dinosaur juice imo.