News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by evrydayhustling on Sunday August 28, 2022 @09:15AM (#32628157)
Now that we can have electronic instruments that "tune" themselves, could we compute song-optimal tunings that preserve the intervals used most in that song? Does this have a name?

As a guitarist we often swap guitars or retune to make certain songs easier to play, or to be able to get a certain tamber put of the note. But I never considered it as a way to address temperament.

It's interesting to think how much of music theory emerges out of reconciliation with available instruments, as opposed to reconciliation with the ear.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by xhevahir on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:07PM (#32629972)
You might like to hear this proprietary algorithm: http://www.hermode.com/index_en.html

Since you're a guitarist, there's also this Swedish guitar, which purports to solve the tuning problem (which I tend to think is not a problem but an essential part of the instrument's sound) https://youtu.be/-penQWPHJzI

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:21PM (#32631209)
Wow, this guitar sounds so ultra-clean! Depending on song this could be pretty nice.

But the normal, "imperfect" guitar does not sound bad. I would also say, this "imperfection" gives a guitar its typical sound in the first place, so it's not a "problem".

Both guitars in that video are great, but indeed quite different.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by smitty1e on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:48PM (#32631434)
The humanity is in the imperfections.

Prediction: society demotes all of the auto-tuning and AI art to training status, and actual art produced by himans with pulses is preferred.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:53PM (#32632895)
Here we're not on the same page, frankly.

My favorite style of music (Psytrance) almost requires digital "perfection".

It's even not really possible to create a "properly sounding" Psytrance bass-line¹, not even a most basic variant, without doing some math (or using tools that will do that math for you). Frequencies, pitch, tempo, and phase need to match constantly and absolutely perfect, or it won't sound properly. Any "humanization" on any preset would kill the sound instantly!

For that reason creating Psytrance is a very "mechanical" task that only machines can perform with the required precision. (And not every machine is good enough for that actually. You need for example oscillators with very high precision or you will experience unwanted artifacts, especially on higher frequencies, that could destroy the sound).

Something that could create "perfectly matching" chords that don't include any dissonance would be really useful to get the (most of the time) desired "ultra-clean" Psytrance sounds. The usual alternative is to filter out all dissonance. But that's a lot of work, or in "bigger" chords or soundscapes outright impossible (even when you slice the sound in the frequency spectrum with all kind of tricks; filters also produce artifacts… And trying to get rid of those artifacts, like phase imperfections, changes the sound again in often undesired ways. A "perfect" tuning form the get go would maybe help with such things).

___

¹ Here two of the better tutorials for Psytrance bass-lines:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m40xkEkrEKo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4B1NcdNJjE

And if you're lazy see here for a VST plugin send form the gods:

https://fx23.net/psylab-pro/

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by smitty1e on Monday August 29, 2022 @05:19PM (#32643696)
A) thanks for intoducing something new

B) this is a subjective point, and one accepts your POV as valid

C) your POV may prove a minority one over time. Or not.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Monday August 29, 2022 @08:54PM (#32645455)
A) You're welcome! :-D

B), C)

I don't think all that electronic "magic" will go away anytime. It's more or less a prerequisite to create some kinds of sounds, which you just can't "manufacture".

It's not only about pure electronic music.

Almost all modern productions in all kinds of genres are depended on the usage of computers (and other machines). All that tech makes modern sounding peaces possible in the first place.

Even seemingly "maximal analog" music (like for example classic orchestra) sounds on a record the way it sounds because there was a lot of digital processing to remove all kinds of imperfections form the recorded raw audio, and of course a lot of of other post-processing.

Also I think it's clear what the majority prefers: People are asking actually for better produced pieces, otherwise the market wouldn't have moved that way.

Back in the day you would need to record and produce in one of that big, very expensive, well know studios somewhere around the world if you wanted to land a hit. The tech in those studios is worth millions to this day. Nobody would have invested in such a thing if people wouldn't have liked the results coming out there. (Today it's thankfully much cheaper to have a good recording; actually some small HW setup and a powerful PC with SW for only a few thousand bucks is more or less enough to sound absolutely professional, if you only know what you're doing of course).

On the other hand your actually right in some sense:

In a lot of genres "absolute perfection" isn't a goal. We use computers to remove "random (human / physical) imperfection" but add in on the other side some "humanization" into the sounds by digital means.

I think there is at the moment even a kind of trend to add more realistic, powerful, and interesting "humanization" possibilities to digital instruments. ("Humanization" or "randomization" knobs aren't anything new, but those functions get extended lately I think; for example you can use now AI instead of simply adding some randomness to some parameters).

So yes, we want to keep "natural" sounds to some degree. But by now we're using computers to artificially make the things that we're producing digitally sound more "natural". :-)

I think the core point here is control. To have something sound really great you need to be able to control every aspect of the sound, even the most tiny details. "Imperfections" are OK, or even actually desired, but only as long as they're added deliberately and remain controllable.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by dehrmann on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:43PM (#32631883)
I think this is the company that makes it: https://www.truetemperament.com/products/
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:33PM (#32631307)
OK, now I'm also sold on this "Hermode Tuning". Sounds indeed great!

How to tune synthesizers this way? What and where to buy?

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by xhevahir on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:27PM (#32632691)
A license has to be purchased, and I think only Steinberg's Cubase and Apple's Logic Pro offer it as a feature. Since Steinberg is owned by Yamaha I suppose they might be allowed to use it in a hardware synthesizer, but as far as I know they do not.

Edit: this table says that Access have hardware synths with Hermode tuning: http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/micro_af.html . Elsewhere I see Waldorf listed as having offered Hermode in some models.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:55PM (#32632908)
Oh, cool! Thanks for the list!
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by ajross on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:04AM (#32628473)
> Now that we can have electronic instruments that "tune" themselves, could we compute song-optimal tunings that preserve the intervals used most in that song?

We've had self-tuning instruments for thousands of years. Vocal harmony has almost always been perfectly tuned for its key. Likewise orchestral strings are fretless and can produce perfect intervals. Equitemperment was an innovation in the 17th century because it approximated the perfect intervals very well ("sounded good") but also permitted the ability to simultaneously represent scales based on every note in the circle of fifths ("sounded interesting"). But the "real" chords were always (well, since the late middle ages) understood to be integer ratios.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by evrydayhustling on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:16AM (#32628556)
This is a cool insight! Can choruses be shown to dynamically adopt "optimal" tunings for a particular song? I.e. the singers settle onto frequencies that make the song's intervals sound best?

To be clear, I'm trying to explore the idea that individual songs have optimal tunings because they only use certain intervals. So, something more fine grained even then singing for a particular key.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by ajross on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:29AM (#32628650)
You can absolutely sing a perfect chord. That's most of the idea behind styles like barbershop, for example. But things start to fall apart when chords transition between each other. The first and third notes of the central chords in a key will line up on top of each other, but the middle notes of the chords and triads based on other notes don't. So just like an equitempered scale sounds a tiny bit off, harmony gets wonky too if you try to do interesting things.

So the compromise we've all settled on is that we play music in the equitempered scale, and only adjust a little bit here and there to exploit perfect tunings in limited, style-dependent ways.

Which is to say: perfect chords are interesting flavor, but at the end of the day kinda boring in isolation; "real" music needs more rules.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by evrydayhustling on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:36AM (#32628709)
Awesome appreciate you explaining this. Hadn't considered the idea that transitions vs simultaneous notes "compete" on what the optimal note frequencies are. And very cool to understand that people are dealing with this pragmatically all the time.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by kofejnik on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:09PM (#32629469)
For a demo, you can search YouTube for “Jacob collier g half-sharp”
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by geofft on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:15AM (#32629033)
Singers will do this via intuition - you don't think of, say, a perfect fifth as 2^(7/12) = 1.4983x over the root. You think of it as a particular pair of sounds that resonates well, much like when you picture "red" in your mind you're not thinking of exact HSV or Pantone values. At most, you'll think of a perfect fifth as exactly halfway between the octaves (1.5x over the root). As the sibling comment points out, this isn't the singers choosing a particular temperament for the entire song; it's them constantly tuning individual chords and intervals to each other and to their previous notes as the song goes on. The same note on paper can be several slightly-different frequencies in different parts of the song, and most singers won't even be able to tell you that they're doing that.

(This is also the same mechanism at work when an entire choir singing an unaccompanied piece goes flat without realizing it. Someone will not quite make an ascending interval, and everyone else will adjust to cover it.)

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by AlbertCory on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:35PM (#32629695)
Thanks, that explains why singers, when they go wrong, are almost always on the flat side.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by tengwar2 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:12AM (#32628529)
Brass instruments (not just the trombone) can have micro-adjustments in pitch through the embouchure (lip position/tension) of the musician.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by squarefoot on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:55AM (#32628861)
Does this apply also to sax? I've listened to some (mainly old) recordings where the sax seems clearly out of tune; sometimes it's subtle but there are recordings in which it's so off that one wonders if it's done on purpose (1) and personally I really dislike it. Back in the day there weren't digital effects or they were so primitive that applying pitch correction on the fly while maintaining sound quality and spectral integrity was out of question, still tape recorders allowed to finely set their speed, so tuning the song to a sax being recorded would have been trivial.

(1) Example: "get up an get out" by Iggy Pop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ld5jG3f-M

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by colomon on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:44AM (#32629287)
As far as I know it applies to both brass and woodwinds, though the degree of difficulty involved probably varies between types of instruments and also (at least on the woodwinds I'm familiar with) note to note.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by mr_tristan on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:31PM (#32630178)
A sax is really easy to control (or lose control) of the pitch. And in fact, many saxophonists will just shift various ranges around sharp or flat to suit their style (cough Phil Woods cough).

So basically, a woodwind like a sax will tune a few notes with a piano or whatever, but it's really up to the player to keep playing in tune. I would not even bother trying to autotune or use post-processing; it'll just sound weird.

This is also how you can get a room full of student musicians "tuned" but it still sounds like a disaster.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by tengwar2 on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @04:27PM (#32654629)
If you listen to the start of Acker Bilk's "Stranger on the Shore", you can hear him bending the notes deliberately.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by palimpsests on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:16PM (#32629533)
retuning via tape velocity modulation would be easiest if the instrument in question was consistently out of tune with the rest of the band - like if the sax was always 15 cents flat relative to the harmonic structure.

usually that’s not the case though. typically it’s individual notes. much harder to precisely and accurately modulate tape velocity (especially by hand).

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by bewaretheirs on Sunday August 28, 2022 @02:02PM (#32630471)
Yep. And - where musically appropriate - if you know which note of the chord you're playing, you can tweak the pitch towards the Pythagorean tuning and get the harmony to "ring" as the harmonics of each note reinforce each other.

This sort of hybrid tuning is common in barbershop quartet singing as well.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by analog31 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:27AM (#32628632)
Also, the tubes for the individual valves have their own tuning slides. A trumpet will typically have a little thumb-operated lever for one of those slides, to help with some of the notes. I saw a video of a tuba solo, and the tubist was working the tuning slides almost as much as the valves.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by jnwatson on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:35AM (#32629200)
Thumb-operated levers on trumpets are uncommon (though, IMHO ergonomically superior). More common are a ring in which you place your left ring finger. The ring is directly attached to a slide on the third valve, so you can flatten notes by extending your left ring finger.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by bewaretheirs on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:51PM (#32630366)
What I've seen is a thumb lever for the 1st valve, finger ring for the 3rd valve.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by tengwar2 on Tuesday August 30, 2022 @04:31PM (#32654668)
Those removable slides are usually just to get the spit out of the loops. I haven't seen the lever you mention - are you sure you are not just looking at the usual [water key](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMbb8-WK_VM)?
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by dbcurtis on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:59AM (#32628901)
With valved brass instruments you are trying to approximate a logarithmic relationship with a linear sum of components. Trumpets have a high resonant Q, so not using the valve slides is going to produce out of tune notes. I played horn once upon a time. Horns have low resonant Q, so you just “lip it in”.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by palimpsests on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:18PM (#32629549)
one of my favorite aspects of learning the tuba was when we covered logarithmic approximations via linear summing.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by mrob on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:13AM (#32629015)
You can even dynamically adjust the tuning to maximize consonance throughout the song, e.g.:

https://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/mp3s/three_ears.html

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:02PM (#32631012)
Is "maximized consonance" what causes those extreme sharp sounding ring tones? (After listening to this peace my ears are still ringing; 2 min. after the fact).

Also the tonal glides sound like an old broken record player. (This creates a sensation of "wobbling speed", which sounds just wrong).

Hmm, my ears are still ringing, even while writing this; that was not a pleasant experience to be honest…

I guess I need some ear-bleach. Psytrance to the rescue! Let's see, maybe, hmm, Talpa¹, or maybe better that old Atma set²?

___

¹ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wErFe-1dlg4

² https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU9FDStUoT8

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by dcow on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:08PM (#32629458)
This is really cool. It sounds weird for about the first 45-90 seconds but then my mind adjusts and it sounds really pleasant. Would make a good context/theme for a video game soundtrack.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by drdeca on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:29PM (#32630166)
To me the individual notes sound fine and usually normal-ish (except for the really extended ones), but I have difficulty hearing the overall tune? Or, it sounds like there are parts of a tune with other parts on top which I don’t hear how they fit?

I think a clearer demonstration might be to have a side by side comparison of a fairly simple tune in 12TET vs in this dynamical tuning.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by thewebcount on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:55PM (#32631492)
Agreed! I’m not hearing a very definable or memorable melody or harmony. The synth sounds chosen are kind of grating, which doesn’t help. I’d love to hear something more coherent in this sort of tuning to get a better understanding of it.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by AnonCoward42 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:38PM (#32629725)
It really is kool. However, I have the feeling you can transport only a very limited range of emotions with it as we are accustomed to certain harmonics I guess.

Still, it's kinda like alien music and it's certainly creative.

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by still_grokking on Sunday August 28, 2022 @03:44PM (#32631396)
I just learned: This seems to be related to that "Hermode Tuning".

https://en.xen.wiki/w/Adaptive_just_intonation

But there seem to be differences. Some demos have those tonal glides (that I don't like) but some don't (and sound just great).

Could someone explain in a "TL;DR" what's going on here?

But I see, that wiki I just found seems to be full of info. But it will take time to read all that… Would prefer to have some VSTs to just play around with. Any tips?

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by smrq on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:16AM (#32629035)
Not trying to be "that guy", just figured you might want to know-- although it's pronounced "tamber" it's spelled "timbre". Thanks, english.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by kqr on Sunday August 28, 2022 @11:23AM (#32629089)
I think this one you can blame on the French.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by m-p-3 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:01PM (#32629410)
The word sounds exactly how it is written when you say it in French tho, not our fault you adopted the word and say it differently ;)
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by zdragnar on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:57PM (#32629904)
I blame the English aristocrats. Why eat cow like a peasant when you could have some beef like a fancy person?
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by kibwen on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:20PM (#32630084)
And why spell it "color" like the Romans did when you can blithely attempt to imitate the French aristocracy by injecting arbitrary "u"s into random words, thus giving you license to complain about CSS keywords for the rest of recorded history? :P
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by willnonya on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:34PM (#32630214)
You're my new favorite person.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by dudeguy3301 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:49PM (#32631920)
also, think the french started this. a name for the animal in the field, a different name for the animal on your plate.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by zdragnar on Sunday August 28, 2022 @09:52PM (#32634015)
The Norman conquest of England brought with it pork, beef, mutton and plenty of other adaptations of Old French words. The nobility ingratiated themselves by adopting the new vocabulary, and doing so (true for most of history, I imagine) stood out as a social status signal. The way of speaking filtered down to the lower classes over time.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by Sharlin on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:38PM (#32631844)
Huh, I'm pretty sure that it doesn't sound like [timbre] in French either :D
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by kingcoleman on Sunday August 28, 2022 @09:14PM (#32633837)
Whenever I hear the phrase "that guy" in a guitar/music thread I can never not hear Guthrie Govan cracking jokes (also funny, in context to your comment considering it's pronounced "guh-van" despite the spelling)

https://youtu.be/A8CoUmmOKpI

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by Tagbert on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:24PM (#32630124)
The pronunciation is highly variable and the spelling has historically also been variable. When French words are imported to English, sometimes people try to retain the French pronunciation and other times they anglicize it. This word seems to have been handled both ways.

Another thing that happens is that both English and French change their pronunciation over time. After English imports a word, the French pronunciation may change making the English word look odd or not even look connected. Not sure that this happened to “timbre” but it did happen to words like “chief” and “chef”. Both were imported from French but at different times. “Chief” when French used the hard ‘ch’ sound and “chef” when French had switched to the soft ‘sh’ sound.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/timbre https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Timbre

Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by MikeBattaglia on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:11PM (#32630003)
This is called "adaptive just intonation." Logic Pro X has this feature built in, using a particular algorithm called Hermode Tuning. It sounds great
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by thebeardisred on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:50PM (#32630348)
/me goes to explore this in Ableton...
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by andrepd on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:05AM (#32628476)
There is a very similar thing: Just intonation http://alumni.media.mit.edu/~bdenckla/thesis/texts/htthe/nod...
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by bluGill on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:08AM (#32628493)
Maybe, but it needs to be the whole band not just one instrument. What notes the bass us hitting changes how the guitar needs to sound and vice versa. If you have a large orchestra it's gets hard, and even worse if someone hits a wrong note.
Re:Why are D-sharp and E-flat considered to be two different... by golergka on Sunday August 28, 2022 @02:09PM (#32630538)
Apple Logic Pro has this function built in as Hermode tuning.