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Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:59PM (#32603191)
This document feels out of place to me. It's addressed to various regulators, and at a surface level it has the form of an affidavit or other legal document. But the language is far too familiar to be writing for that audience - they refer to Mudge consistently as Mudge rather than, say, "Mr. Zatko"; they make liberal use of superlatives; they add emphasis using bold text. This is kind of like writing a cover letter where you explain why the job would be great for you rather than why you would be great for the job, it's going to sound wrong to your intended audience, and it will degrade your credibility in their eyes (rightly or wrongly). This isn't the style you would adopt if you wanted such austere organizations as the SEC, DOJ, and they even mention _Congress_ to take you seriously.

This leads me to believe that this is a document for public consumption adopting the aesthetics of a letter of concern sent to regulators, and that this document is being submitted to the court of public opinion. I don't doubt that Twitter executives are borderline fraudulent and may have crossed the line into outright fraud - I'd be unsurprised to learn that about any group of executives at any large company. But this document has more the feeling of propaganda than a serious appeal to regulators.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by fragmede on Friday August 26, 2022 @01:00AM (#32603526)
In Mr. Zatko's previous appearance before Congress* in 1998, he was addressed by his hacker nom-de-plume, Mudge. Perhaps they see fit to continue this practice.

*https://youtu.be/VVJldn_MmMY

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @01:14AM (#32603598)
That's certainly true, I've seen this testimony before and were that the only thing that was off about the document I wouldn't have made my comment. Any one of these elements isn't sufficient to justify suspicion of anything, it is the preponderance of them.

The use of the Mudge is certainly the weakest of the indicators I've presented; what do you think of the strongest of them, the unusual use of emphasis? What do you think of the three of them taken together? If you were the author of this document and you just found out that the public would never see it, only officials at the SEC et al - would you feel like this document was likely to be effective for that audience? Is there truly nothing about it you'd change in that circumstance?

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by cbdc_watcher on Friday August 26, 2022 @01:40AM (#32603719)
Why should the style matter more than the content. If our gov agencies are as sensitive to style of communication as you suggest then I would say they are wasting our tax dollars with their extreme focus on aesthetics and spurious semantics.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:02AM (#32603834)
As I've said, what I believe is that this document _was not intended for regulators_ and is employing _deceptive tactics to win in the court of public opinion rather than the court of law_, and you're welcome not to find that important but I do. I'd also argue that style and aesthetics do, in fact, matter and are worth discussing, as they are part of the context in which the content resides and our understanding would be incomplete without them.

I do think there is a good reason for bodies which are meant to dispassionately find facts and enforce regulations to prefer plain language and straightforward argumentation. But even if that weren't the case, it really wouldn't reflect on my argument. Additionally, everything the document alleges could be true, and the allegations worthy of discussion - I haven't argued that they aren't true or that we shouldn't be discussing them, I have no way of knowing if they are true and am ambivalent about whether we should give them oxygen - and that would not reflect on my argument.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by fragmede on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:57AM (#32604098)
Tactics which will win over the court of public opinion differ than tactics that would win over regulators, but the piece was always going to try and convince the reader of it's thesis, whomever the reader ends up being. I'm curious why you think the difference in audience make those tactics rise to the level of deception and propaganda though. Stripped of all bold emphasis, would the document read the same? IMO, yes. But I'm not an SEC regulator.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @03:48AM (#32604366)
I believe the document lied about the intended audience - both directly stating and, through form and aesthetics, implying, that it was for one audience while truly being for another - to mislead the reader into thinking it was more authoritative than it actually was. Were this to be a blog post or press release, I wouldn't call it deceptive.

I go into slightly more detail on this point here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32603317

No, I don't believe it would read the same without emphasis. Especially since the emphasis is often on superlatives rather than the substance of certain statements. I'm not sure what to say other than, "emphasis is a tool of graphic design that does, in fact, function." It guides the eye and enables the reader to skim, and if you took away the emphasis, this document would be less effective, at least if the goals of the document are what I have argued.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by aaaaaaaaata on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:54AM (#32607547)
"Lied" makes it seem like the guy has any agenda besides protecting the Internet and the community around it.

Your questions seem reasonable except the fact they're about him!

Do you understand his (very populist) history?!

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @01:07PM (#32610115)
It does not seem likely to me that Mudge wrote this document personally. The document either doesn't have a byline or the byline is censored, but I'm guessing it was authored by some lawyers and distributed by Whistleblower Aid, or perhaps authored by Whistleblower Aid. I don't think it particularly reflects on Mudge's personal views on the situation, and it probably doesn't reflect on his intentions either.

It's pretty apparent that one of the intentions of this document is to get Musk out of hot water - totally separate from "protecting the internet" and not a particularly populist goal.

I'd speculate this represents a collaboration between Musk and Mudge's legal teams, probably in exchange for Musk funding litigation from Mudge regarding wrongful termination. That's all speculation, it's just what makes the most sense to me.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by fragmede on Friday August 26, 2022 @05:21PM (#32612906)
From having worked with Mudge tangentially in the past, the bit about Twitter not having a cold-boot scenario and that being a problem sounds like him. Given Mudge's storied history, I don't know that he needs Musk to help him fund litigation regarding wrongful termination, though the timing is interesting. Musk has more funds than Mudge does, and spending someone else's money is always more fun than spending your own, so maybe there's something to that, but as you say, that's just speculation.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by cbdc_watcher on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:17AM (#32603909)
Maybe some gov agencies have the kind of culture that is biased toward a dry and austere communication style such as that typically found in papers coming out of regulatory agencies (and ones presented to them), but I assure you it is not a issue of logic; it's an issue of cultural preference. Trying to argue that a certain communication style is more productive in a certain context is again a cultural bias (not of your opinion but of theirs)
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @03:55AM (#32604422)
I think we're just having different conversations here.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by cbdc_watcher on Friday August 26, 2022 @05:18AM (#32604978)
you're saying it was sent to the regulators but it was written as a blog post for popular consumption. I'm countering by saying that whether the regulators are communicated with using a dry, austere style or a theatrical one fit for a blog post should not change the outcome, unless the regulators are culturally biased (toward the dry style) and therefore the sender chose to hit two birds with one stone )both the regulators and blog readers as audience).... that is unless the regulators are culturally biased
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by aaaaaaaaata on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:55AM (#32607565)
Yes — why not achieve the most pressure from as many angles as possible, while telling the truth, just in a civilian-approachable way (as is customary in hacktivist circles).
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by fragmede on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:43AM (#32604036)
Personally, I think Mudge wrote, hoping that this document was going to go before Congress and wrote for them, and that possibly that he would have to go before them. Thus the (over) use of bold emphasis is for a broad audience of which certain members won't (or can't) read as critically as others.

I'd write like there's no way this doesn't leak to the public eventually. It's Twitter we're talking about. Juicy gossip is the point of the platform so of course it's going to get spread. I don't know that it undercuts its message though.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @04:46AM (#32604786)
This doesn't really address any of the questions I posed.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by peteradio on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:05AM (#32603226)
Is there some other legitimate example affidavit which to compare? Is SEC bound by a non-superlative clause? Perhaps the drafting lawyers demanded mandate of flair.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:20AM (#32603317)
To clarify this isn't an affidavit, I just meant that there is clearly a stylistic choice here to have a certain form. Here's an arbitrary example of a criminal complaint (just because it was the first court document I found):

https://www.gwern.net/docs/darknet-markets/2013-ulbricht-com...

The way things are presented in sections with numbered subsections, the way some things in the beginning appear to be redacted, are clearly meant to convey the authority of an official document submitted to a legal body.

I'm sure this doesn't violate any sort of law and that you are permitted to write a letter like this and submit it to regulators. What I'm suggesting is that the stylistic choices they make are indicative of the audience they are writing for, and that it is different from their stated intentions. And that suggests to me that this document has an agenda and is willing to accomplish it through deceptive means (those being, lying about the purpose and audience of the document to enhance it's perceived authority by giving the general public the impression they are the fly on the wall of an official proceeding rather than reading a document for their own consumption that may have no bearing on the outcome of this dispute), which is my personal standard for calling something propaganda.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by choppaface on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:38AM (#32603417)
Page 40 has a redaction over the circumstances under which Mudge was terminated. The intro mentions a Board Member who silenced Mudge and the reactions are done in two blocks so you can infer who that person was. This whole report is a clown show.

This is Elon’s attempt to burn US taxpayer money helping launder him out of having to pay ~$10b to walk away from Twitter. It sounds like Mudge has his own litigation regarding severance. So it was a no-brained to join Musk’s mercenaries.

This issue is not worth taxpayer time. You want less regulation? Then stop crying wolf to Congress, and more importantly, stop just doing dumb stuff like buying a company you can’t actually run.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by m00x on Friday August 26, 2022 @03:26AM (#32604233)
That's a rather large claim without any substantial evidence.

This is HN and it only serves as a court of opinions, and Elon isn't popular right now, but let's keep ourselves intellectually honest.

Twitter has had several security issues, including Saudi spies[1], a large-scale hack of several celebrities[2], and even recent ones[3]. Twitter is one of the largest tech companies and a very important town square.

Mudge was hired to do a job by Dorsey, and the newly appointed execs made it very clear that they don't give a shit about security, when the lack of safety measures has been demonstrated to be dangerous to the public.

[1] https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/09/twitter-spy-convicted-saud... [2] https://www.thewrap.com/teen-mastermind-behind-elon-musk-joe... [3] https://www.hackread.com/twitter-data-breach-accounts-sold-h...

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by blitzar on Friday August 26, 2022 @05:03AM (#32604886)
> That's a rather large claim without any substantial evidence.

> Twitter is one of the largest tech companies and a very important town square.

94th on the chart [1] - as for a town square I respectfully disagree, its a website - 12th according to rankings. Just nudges infront of the other famous town square, pornhub and a little further behind, linkedin. Half the 'traffic' of reddit, and 1/3 of apple somehow, not to mention the giant in the room, facebook. Surely if there is a town square that is it ... i doubt many would even agree with that.

> the newly appointed execs made it very clear that they don't give a shit about security

Allegedly

> when the lack of safety measures has been demonstrated to be dangerous to the public.

I am yet to see said demonstration. Are we worried that XYZ blue checkmark twitter users public tweets are not encrypted at rest on their servers? Or that the entire corpus of the library of twitter might be lost in an catastrophic event?

[1] https://companiesmarketcap.com/tech/largest-tech-companies-b...

[2] https://www.semrush.com/blog/most-visited-websites/ (oh how i miss alexa)

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by aaaaaaaaata on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:58AM (#32607617)
They're one of 3-5 very popular malls in the only Town.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by flomo on Friday August 26, 2022 @12:55AM (#32603494)
Twitter is under a FTC consent degree, which they allegedly have been grossly violating, so the taxpayers are already up in their business.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by aaaaaaaaata on Friday August 26, 2022 @09:57AM (#32607601)
Implying it can be "properly" run seems mildly disingenuous in the context of your otherwise fair comment.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @02:47PM (#32611253)
They didn't imply that there was a proper way to run Twitter (they stated Musk was unfit to run Twitter without addressing whether anyone was more fit), and if it did it wouldn't have been disingenuous. It is not disingenuous to believe there is a proper way to run Twitter, that's just an opinion you may disagree with.
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by aaaaaaaaata on Friday August 26, 2022 @07:51PM (#32614101)
It's yet to be proven it's possible.

I'll stay tuned to see if it happens, like everyone else.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by noptd on Friday August 26, 2022 @03:55AM (#32604419)
Is the style more important than the content?

Seems like he wrote it with multiple audiences in mind and I don't see how that detracts from his claims or message.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @04:42AM (#32604736)
Style is context which should be considered to understand content, and without considering it our understanding of the content may be incomplete (as I argue is the case here). I make no claim that either is more important.

I would claim they did not write for more than one audience. I'd refer you to my other comments in this thread for that argument.

Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by cozos on Friday August 26, 2022 @04:14AM (#32604580)
What is the proper way for emphasis if not with *bold*?
Re:Mudge's redacted Twitter whistleblower disclosure [pdf] by maxbond on Friday August 26, 2022 @04:37AM (#32604709)
Emphasize however you want, I'm not the style police, I'm just arguing the choice to use emphasis rather than plainly state the facts is incongruous with the stated intention of the document and is an indicator that it has a different intention. I'm not saying they did it _wrong_ I'm saying that we can infer something from the choice _to do it_.